Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  quietlyleaving

  Hi Rnaiaa

  celebrating christmas may seem off topic to you but it is a good example of why I no longer believe. Firstly take a look at Luke chapters 1 and 2. It builds a strong argument for rejoicing with others as one would in a festival or party over Jesus and John's birth.

  Particularly Luke 1:14. Regarding John the baptist's birth, the angel said to Zechariah "And you will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth"

  Luke1:58 At John's birth Elizabeth rejoiced with her neighbours and relatives

  Luke1:46-48 "And Mary said "My soul magnifies Jehovah...and my spirit cannot keep from rejoicing...For look! from now on all generations will pronounce me happy"

  I'm seeing a biblical precedent for people to choose a period to rejoice over Jesus birth. A period in which they can rejoice together as they did when Jesus and John were born, and in their own way, expressing from their own hearts. For the WTS to come along and say that this is wrong is unbiblical imo.

  The WTS uses people as a means for publicising itself and does not see humans responding from their hearts in their own way as an end in itself. To me allowing people to do that is the whole spirit of Jesus birth and coming. Don't you get a sense of this spontaneous rejoicing when you read Luke chapters 1&2? To me it is very signifcant that the angel told Zechariah that people would rejoice over John's birth. I see the same rejoicing over Jesus' birth then in that period and now at christmas time.

  There may be commercial aspects and conventions to christmas that we personally object to but we are free to do that. The WTS does not allow the freedom to choose whether one wants to take part or not and it does so for its own benefit and to further its own interests and which also tend to oppose what Jesus' birth and life represents as portrayed in the gospels.

  ql
• 

  reniaa

  Hi Rnaiaa

  celebrating christmas may seem off topic to you but it is a good example of why I no longer believe. Firstly take a look at Luke chapters 1 and 2. It builds a strong argument for rejoicing with others as one would in a festival or party over Jesus and John's birth.

  Particularly Luke 1:14. Regarding John the baptist's birth, the angel said to Zechariah "And you will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth"

  Luke1:58 At John's birth Elizabeth rejoiced with her neighbours and relatives

  Luke1:46-48 " And Mary said "My soul magnifies Jehovah ...and my spirit cannot keep from rejoicing...For look! from now on all generations will pronounce me happy"

  I'm seeing a biblical precedent for people to choose a period to rejoice over Jesus birth . A period in which they can rejoice together as they did when Jesus and John were born, and in their own way, expressing from their own hearts. For the WTS to come along and say that this is wrong is unbiblical imo.

  The WTS uses people as a means for publicising itself and does not see humans responding from their hearts in their own way as an end in itself. To me allowing people to do that is the whole spirit of Jesus birth and coming. Don't you get a sense of this spontaneous rejoicing when you read Luke chapters 1&2? To me it is very signifcant that the angel told Zechariah that people would rejoice over John's birth. I see the same rejoicing over Jesus' birth then in that period and now at christmas time.

  There may be commercial aspects and conventions to christmas that we personally object to but we are free to do that. The WTS does not allow the freedom to choose whether one wants to take part or not and it does so for its own benefit and to further its own interests and which also tend to oppose what Jesus' birth and life represents as portrayed in the gospels.

  ql

  I appreciate what your saying but by some of the points you are shooting yourself in the foot. as we don't have a celebration for johns birth which we would if we follow your reasoning. because that means your point that you see the same rejoicing over jesus's birth presupposes that in celebrating jesus's birth annually we are following a pattern of johns but despite zechariah's words that has never happenned. People only rejoiced at his birth and that he was born it has never meant or indeed became an annual celebration to john.

  but back to why you left JW's I still think that showing jesus's death has more significance from the JW point of view is a valid argument biblically because the passover to his death is specifically dealt with in all 4 gospels, jesus birth is only dealt with in a very limited way and not at all by the gospel of john. And yet which has greater meaning to average christians today?

  Freedom is a concept I come across a lot on this forum as a reason to leave Jw's but not leavng the bible as well, it's one i would like to explore more as a discussion as to the benefits and deficits.
• 

  sacolton

  "some are covered by bible principle even though not mentioned specifically" This should be the WTBTS motto. Some bible, but not actually and we won't hesitate to go outside the scriptures.
• 

  quietlyleaving

  Hi Rnaiaa

  celebrating christmas may seem off topic to you but it is a good example of why I no longer believe. Firstly take a look at Luke chapters 1 and 2. It builds a strong argument for rejoicing with others as one would in a festival or party over Jesus and John's birth.

  Particularly Luke 1:14. Regarding John the baptist's birth, the angel said to Zechariah "And you will have joy and great gladness, and many will rejoice over his birth"

  Luke1:58 At John's birth Elizabeth rejoiced with her neighbours and relatives

  Luke1:46-48 " And Mary said "My soul magnifies Jehovah ...and my spirit cannot keep from rejoicing...For look! from now on all generations will pronounce me happy"

  I'm seeing a biblical precedent for people to choose a period to rejoice over Jesus birth . A period in which they can rejoice together as they did when Jesus and John were born, and in their own way, expressing from their own hearts. For the WTS to come along and say that this is wrong is unbiblical imo.

  The WTS uses people as a means for publicising itself and does not see humans responding from their hearts in their own way as an end in itself. To me allowing people to do that is the whole spirit of Jesus birth and coming. Don't you get a sense of this spontaneous rejoicing when you read Luke chapters 1&2? To me it is very signifcant that the angel told Zechariah that people would rejoice over John's birth. I see the same rejoicing over Jesus' birth then in that period and now at christmas time.

  There may be commercial aspects and conventions to christmas that we personally object to but we are free to do that. The WTS does not allow the freedom to choose whether one wants to take part or not and it does so for its own benefit and to further its own interests and which also tend to oppose what Jesus' birth and life represents as portrayed in the gospels.

  ql

  I appreciate what your saying but by some of the points you are shooting yourself in the foot. as we don't have a celebration for johns birth which we would if we follow your reasoning. because that means your point that you see the same rejoicing over jesus's birth presupposes that in celebrating jesus's birth annually we are following a pattern of johns but despite zechariah's words that has never happenned. People only rejoiced at his birth and that he was born it has never meant or indeed became an annual celebration to john.

  but back to why you left JW's I still think that showing jesus's death has more significance from the JW point of view is a valid argument biblically because the passover to his death is specifically dealt with in all 4 gospels, jesus birth is only dealt with in a very limited way and not at all by the gospel of john. And yet which has greater meaning to average christians today?

  Freedom is a concept I come across a lot on this forum as a reason to leave Jw's but not leavng the bible as well, it's one i would like to explore more as a discussion as to the benefits and deficits.

  Renaiaa,

  Many people do celebrate John's birth - its just that you don't know about them. But the majority of people celebrate and commemorate Jesus birth. The wts says its wrong to commemorate anyone's birth, let alone Jesus and John's . The important point is that the manmade convention of celebrating Jesus birth then and now makes what Jesus represents accessible and significant to as many people as possible. The WTS renders it inaccessible and insignificant. This goes against what the bible says happened at that time - because, for example, the angels by declaring his birth, and the people by getting together and rejoicing were making it accessible and significant and something to be shared. And that is what societal conventions and christianity do today when they celebrate christmas, imo.

  Jesus death and resurrection are commemorated today with great meaning and significance. Why do you feel that a lesser meaning is attached to Jesus' death than to his birth? To me they are just celebrated differently.

  ql
• 

  Eyes Open

  Hello reniaa,

  This reminds me of another discussion in which I recommended a book to you that discusses genres of literature in the bible. If I remember correctly you declined to consider this important avenue of scholarship. Perhaps you would consider reading it as it is relevant to the issues in this thread and you will not learn about this important topic in your bible "study" with Jehovah's Witnesses, whose teachings require that they selectively literally apply certain scriptures whilst ignoring wider context and purpose.

  Since then I have seen that it is available online for free:

  How to Read the Bible: History, Prophecy, Literature - Why Modern Readers Need to Know the Difference, and What it Means for Faith Today, Steven L. McKenzie

  Let us know what you think, particularly about chapter five.
• 

  reniaa

  Hello reniaa,

  This reminds me of another discussion in which I recommended a book to you that discusses genres of literature in the bible. If I remember correctly you declined to consider this important avenue of scholarship. Perhaps you would consider reading it as it is relevant to the issues in this thread and you will not learn about this important topic in your bible "study" with Jehovah's Witnesses, whose teachings require that they selectively literally apply certain scriptures whilst ignoring wider context and purpose.

  Since then I have seen that it is available online for free:

  How to Read the Bible: History, Prophecy, Literature - Why Modern Readers Need to Know the Difference, and What it Means for Faith Today , Steven L. McKenzie

  Let us know what you think, particularly about chapter five.

  The bible is my main thing that I judge all things by (inc Wts) and i like that i judge it from my own viewpoint if a statement is made using a scripture to back it up then i can judge for myself if the statement is valid or not by reading the scripture and judging for myself, pretty much as billy bethelite does with his notes on wts articles, they are what his opinion are on the wts studies and he has the right to do that! but you are asking me to read some jobloggs opinion based 'How to' book on bible reading I maybe snobbish in this but i'm happy with the way I do it now lol.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  reniaa

  As a Christian, you don't really think that Biblical Law is something that you can keep, do you?
• 

  DaCheech

  honestly reniaa.

  I am a JW only because I am being held hostage by loosing my family (no adultery needed). Like I said "the minute I leave, my wife will leave me"

  the God of the JW's is petty, and cruel and can only justify it's laws with circular reasoning.... and when it contradicts itself the JW god says "that law was abolished, but the principles stay forever"

  the Paul of the bible disfellowshipped for gross conduct, but the God of the JW's disfellowships for anything that challenges them.

  you know what, I believe in God, but since the bible has sooooo many contradictions..... my God belief has also changed.
• 

  jgnat

  Ah, reniaa. The princess of deflection. I wasn't talking about dullness, gift giving, or generosity at all. I suggested that biblically speaking, JW's should be marking many more holidays than they are. Besides the biblical examples I also suggested that children need marked, regularly scheduled rituals and holidays. Maybe this helps them to solidify their childhood memories and for their emotional development. It makes sense that if the marking of holidays is faithfully recorded in the bible, and that there is an obvious benefit for children and adults to regularly celebrate, we should be doing it. You claim to depend on the bible for your morality.Yet you show a marked preference for WT doctrine. Some of your ideas are decidedly extra-biblical.

  On the positive side, you have noted that adults also benefit from ritual. Yes, they do. I'll repeat one question, because I think it spurs thinking rather than just flinging opinions about (something I think all of us are prone to do).

  Just a thought, Reniaa. Would the Jewish festivals be considered as part of the "law"? Are they an obligation or a celebration?
• 

  OUTLAW

  Reniaa..Let me help you..You don`t seem to be intelligent enough to open a Thesaurus,much less use one....."PARTY" is not in the description of Rejoice in a Therausrus.....The words you will find are "Exult" "Jubilate" and "Celebrate".........If you look up "Exult" in the Dictionary it say`s: to Exult is to REJOICE......If you look up Jubilate in the dictionary it say`s: Wild shout/Joyful and Triumphant/Elated/"REJOICING"......If you look up "Celebrate" in the dictionary it says:to preform with appropriate rites/to honour by "Solemn Ceremonies"/to observe a notable occasion/to observe a notable occasion with festivities.....Guess what Reniaa?..Not even Festivities,means Party..It means "To engage in joyful acts".......................................Now that your a bit more educated.....I will ask you once again..Will you please answer my Questions in my first post to You????????..............OUTLAW