Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  reniaa

  hi lisaann

  Reniaa,

  I forgot to answer your question! (Thank you for answering mine.) This may sound strange, but even when I was immersed in the JWs- and I was quite immersed- I never really could bring myself to believe in the bible! Lol the opposite of most everyone else here!

  I was very uncomfortable reading the bible because it was such a violent, gory book- when it wasn't really, really boring. Whenever I studied with people I always turned their attention back to the publications because those made sense to me. I couldn't answer their questions about why god permits suffering because nobody could explain it to me sufficiently for it to make sense. But boy could I debate the
  trinity, or hellfire, or the gentile times and such. I still have my original Truth book from 1968- I loved that book from the time I was 8 years old. And I really loved the religion. It was the bible that embarrassed me.

  hi lisaann, after reading 12 pages of replies you answer is unique so far, lol if I want to get to sleep i just read a few pages of leviticus or deuteromy it's like counting sheep very effective but not revelation or Daniel thinking on them might keep you awake all night :) But I do agree the bible is a hard book, I get the impression it's a love/hate sort of choice. I do wonder at the God sometimes the uncompromising telling of the stories not prettying up the consequences and punishments but for me it makes it more believable. Also I like David he is my flawed favourite after Jesus he was so intelligent and some of the psalms he wrote are a sheer beauty, I wish i could hear them as he would sing them /sigh as you can see I am defo of the bible lover variety but I do still struggle with the harshness of punishments in the bible.

  Reniaa
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  reniaa

  hi deputy dog

  reniaa

  As a Christian, you don't really think that Biblical Law is something that you can keep, do you?

  You may have to expand on this for me, if you mean jewish law it was very people and time specific,and consequences that you couldn't implement now (It's one thing I always wonder how jews that are still living under the law deal with now?) but as for jesus and principles he set, yes I think you can but I also accept its a striving thing. Is this what you ment?

  Reniaa
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  AK - Jeff

  One quick reply on my way out the door to work, R.

  We celebrate Christmas now. We did not do so for the first 50 years of our lives, not because we found much Biblical support to reject the holiday - but because the organzation directed us that way. Now that we have found the organization to be.... for lack of better verbage... completely full of shit....... we have taken up the celebration in a more or less secular fashion.

  Mostly we have done it for our grandkids [whom we are raising]. They need the social aspects of the holiday. They will not ever be Jw's, and they live in western society with it's customs and traditions. They need the childhood memories that we don't have in our history. They need to connect with the world that they live within.

  The other reason is as stated above. I have found volumes of lies emanating from the WTS, and this subject is one that can be painted from many angles of opinion. I cannot imagine why I would prefer the WTS position. It would be like choosing to believe one sentence in a speech filled with provable lies and fantasy. So I just prefer to ignore WTS doctrine entirely and reject it with the rest of their lies.

  And this comes from one who would have died willingly a few years back for the Watchtower. I was immersed and solid. Once I knew it was lies - I fled.

  Jeff
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  reniaa

  hi jgnat

  Ah, reniaa. The princess of deflection. I wasn't talking about dullness, gift giving, or generosity at all. I suggested that biblically speaking, JW's should be marking many more holidays than they are. Besides the biblical examples I also suggested that children need marked, regularly scheduled rituals and holidays. Maybe this helps them to solidify their childhood memories and for their emotional development. It makes sense that if the marking of holidays is faithfully recorded in the bible, and that there is an obvious benefit for children and adults to regularly celebrate, we should be doing it. You claim to depend on the bible for your morality.Yet you show a marked preference for WT doctrine. Some of your ideas are decidedly extra-biblical.

  On the positive side, you have noted that adults also benefit from ritual. Yes, they do. I'll repeat one question, because I think it spurs thinking rather than just flinging opinions about (something I think all of us are prone to do).

  Just a thought, Reniaa. Would the Jewish festivals be considered as part of the "law"? Are they an obligation or a celebration?

  arhh I see were you are getting at now, I wasn't deflecting just misunderstanding the point you were expressing, your saying it's a human need for markers to? hmmm I can only speak from my own experience and as a born in JW I had markers but they were just different, vacations became markers, assemblies became markers I enjoyed preparing for them always around the same time of year.

  Just a thought, Reniaa. Would the Jewish festivals be considered as part of the "law"? Are they an obligation or a celebration?

  I'm not quite sure were you are going with this question but yes I think some were set out for them to celebrate especially passover but the NT is very clear we as christians are no longer required to celebrate them, but are you making the point that the principle of festivals is there? thats a good point, witnesses do have parties and suchlike but without a specific label on them, it's harder for them because you have to remind yourself rather than have the marker up as a constant reminder but if we celebrate something, are you responsible for what you celebrate, the content and it's theme? Does the need for festivals outweigh the need for accuracy? personally I think as Christians we are responsible for content to and held accountable, need is not reason enough in my opinion but I take it you disagree?

  Reniaa
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  barry

  In many catholic countries the birth of John the baptist is celebrated 6months before xmas on about the 25th of June and after. Remember that John was 6 months older than Jesus. In the Philippines around that time you are likely to get a bucket of water thrown over you and celebrations are held for at least a week in each village. A Hermana is chosen to run the celebrations and is in charge of events culminating in feeding the poor that live outside the village.

  Barry
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  reniaa

  Hi, Reniaa!

  I don't believe in the Bible or JW religion. I believe in the Wiccan Rede, which is the Golden Rule. That part I believe in. I like the Jesus character, not that I believe that he actually existed as the Bible says. I don't believe that one needs anything more than the Rede or Golden Rule to live good lives.

  hi whitedove thank you for you reply, I have to say wiccan is one of the faiths I haven't explored but golden rule sounds something similar to what you would find in the NT 'Do unto others as you would do to them' to paraphrase it, is it similar?

  Reniaa
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  Deputy Dog

  Reniaa

  You may have to expand on this for me, if you mean jewish law it was very people and time specific,and consequences that you couldn't implement now (It's one thing I always wonder how jews that are still living under the law deal with now?) but as for jesus and principles he set, yes I think you can but I also accept its a striving thing. Is this what you ment?

  How is your law keeping going? Are you "striving" with the flesh to keep the law?

  Do you really think you can love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, ALL your soul, and ALL your mind? Do you really think you can love your neighbor as yourself?

  Are you an exception to:

  Rom 3:10

  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

  I know I'm not.

  Rom 3:21

  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

  Bottom line is The righteousness of God comes through FAITH IN CHRIST not law keeping (Old or New Testament)

  Keeping the Law will not produce righteousness

  Rom 3:20

  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

  Jesus gives righteousness freely by faith, not by law keeping.
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  jgnat

  vacations became markers, assemblies became markers I enjoyed preparing for them always around the same time of year

  Yes, that is more to the point. Your example is what I would expect. In the absence of marked holidays, the Witness routines would replace them. Your memories are centred around the assemblies. As a side note, this could explain the effort Witnesses expend to prepare for the events. I haven't seen such exotic dress amongst the ladies since High School grad. Perhaps the energy expended towards this event point to a lack of marked holidays and events for the Witnesses?

  the NT is very clear we as christians are no longer required to celebrate [holidays]

  Where in the NT is it very clear? Paul said we are not under the law, but my question is whether a marked holiday is "law" at all. Is it not much more a ritual or a tradition? My question is not about obligation, but whether these regular holidays and events are desireable and good.

  ...but are you making the point that the principle of festivals is there? thats a good point, witnesses do have parties and suchlike but without a specific label on them, it's harder for them because you have to remind yourself rather than have the marker up as a constant reminder...

  This is an important point. The Jews have four holidays that are named, dated, recorded in the bible, and celebrated annually. The Witnesses don't have anywhere near that number. Without labelling, the event loses it's influence, it's marker as you so well described, in our memory.

  but if we celebrate something, are you responsible for what you celebrate, the content and it's theme?

  This is probably where the Witnesses get all caught up. Origins are scrutinized. Yet other objects with "pagan" origins, such as wedding rings and pinatas, are tolerated. I've told my husband over and over again, my Halloween celebrations are clean, honest and fun. No scary stuff. My Christmases are full of family, food, music, and memories. Ever since the Witnesses inserted themselves in to my Christmases, they have become a battleground of ill-feeling. Hubby, as hard as he tries to stay "neutral", cracks under the pressure to abstain, and invariably starts a fight. I know this is not what the Witnesses instruct couples in mixed marriages to do, but the Witness articles and public talks around that time, harping against the "pressure of the world" result in unneeded disharmony and pain.

  What could possibly be evil or wrong about Mother's Day, Father's Day, or Thanksgiving? They have no pagan origin. Their content and theme harmless.

  Does the need for festivals outweigh the need for accuracy?

  Absolutely. The Witnesses are hopelessly caught up on "accuracy", though their carefully constructed chronologies are a proven sham. The heavens may operate in clocklike order, but nature is full of variety and organic change. Celebrate variety, I say. After all God made this world the way it is. My imagery is the difference between monoculture and diversity. Here is a picture of a monoculture banana crop.

  

  Here is a picture of boreal forest.

  

  Now as society we know more about nature, we know that biodiversity is better for all living creatures. People, too, are not monoculture, uniform, lockstep. Tell me, is it more important to teach your child to tie her shoelaces, than to make sure it is uniform and "accurate"? My daughter perfected a simpler way to tie her shoes, and then taught her older brother. Should I have stopped her because it was "inaccurate"?
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  Blueblades

  I no longer believe that the Bible is inspired of God. I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is a historical book. Some of what is written in it could be found in "The Chicken Soup" series. Since the Bible is a man made historical book, so is its different views of "The God" portrayed in it.

  I am no longer captive of a concept concerning the Bible and God. I live my life without concern about being punished because of this. I show concern for all creation and live my life accordingly, reaching out for the "Good".

  Blueblades
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  OUTLAW

  Reniaa..You repeatedly claimed to have answered my questions through out this thread..You were extremely deceitful in claiming the word "Celebrate" was the same as the word "Party"..Neither the dictionary nor the Thesaurus recognise the word "Celebrate",as being the same as the word "Party"(You Lied!).............I told you,you had not answered my questions and repeatedly asked you to answer them......Your last reply to me was that,"you reject my questions".....Your last post to me,be betrayed you...How could you have answered my questions,when it is clear you reject them?(You Lied)).....Guess what?..I want an answer to this post..LOL!!.......Liar,Liar pants on Fire,nose as long as Reniaa`s!!.................................OUTLAW