jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

OUTLAW

Cameo-D..Is Jesus,God?..I have no frigg`n idea,I`m not a Christian!..LOL!!.............Your post indicates,you believe Jesus is your Mediator..That makes you a Christian.........The WBT$ is Reniaa`s Mediator..If Jesus is not her Mediator,how can she be a Christian???...........................OUTLAW
brofromzion

God the Father, Jehovah = God the Son, Jesus

Let’s confirm that God the Father, Jehovah, and God the Son, Jesus, are one God.

Isaiah prophesied about Jesus as follows:

Isa. 9:6 ?For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.?

Jesus is referred to as the "Son," but the Bible revealed that the son would be called "Mighty God," and "Everlasting Father." Apostle Paul clearly understood that Jesus’ nature was that of God the Father, as follows:

Phil. 2:5-7 ?Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man...?

Rom. 9:5 ?...Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.?

We can also confirm that God the Father, Jehovah, and God the Son, Jesus, are one God by studying the history of the Creation.

Isa. 44:24 ?I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself...?

God the Father?Jehovah?said that He had created everything by Himself, but Jesus said that it was He who had created the world.

Col. 1:16 ?For by him [Jesus] all things were created...?

The Bible states that God the Father, Jehovah, created the world, but it also says that God the Son, Jesus, created the world. Therefore, God the Father [Jehovah] and God the Son [Jesus] are clearly one God.

Isa. 44:6 ?"This is what the LORD says?Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last...?

God the Father said, "I am the first and I am the last."

Rev. 22:13 ?"I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."?

God the Son also said, "I am the First and the Last." Therefore, God the Father, Jehovah, and God the Son, Jesus, are one God.
God bless you all.
Pubsinger

Here are my thoughts.

Pub

simon.goodlifebooks.co.uk/sites/344/docs/infinity.doc
isaacaustin
DoomVoyager

IT seems you people who believe Jesus is God have a strange monotheism based on Jesus with a reluntant tagging on of Father and holy spirit who are like embarassing guests at a wedding to be tolerated but overlooked if possible when gasing at the Main attraction.
Again, you cling to the Washtowel's strawman definition of the trinity. Jesus, Jehoober, and the Holy Spook are not "3 seperate gods in one" as the WT likes to claim Trinitarians believe. They're all the same god (according to real trinitarians anyways) so worshipping the Son is the same as worshippign the Father which is the same as worshipping the Spirit. It doesn't matter what name you use.
(I hope I got that right, I don't even believe in god so I have no idea why I'm arguing about this madness.)
It seems to me that YOU have a strange polytheism in which you dedicate your life to the WTBTS, and you worship them with your works, but you worship Jehoober with your lips, and Jesus... well, he's a guy who lived a good life and "true Christians strive to imitate him", except for all that business about the blood transfusions and shunnings perverts and beards and rules and such, none of which he would have stood for, also he didn't go door to door preaching, so I'm not really sure how it is that JWs "imitate Christ", but hey he was just a man and the WTBTS is JEHOOBER'S REPRESENTATIVE ON EARTH so best do what they say!
isaacaustin

you then use hebrews scripture
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
Just noticed what you said here.
First off, I suggest you look to the original language and determine what is really meant by the term that has been translated as 'made'.
Secondly, Jesus claims to be the Son of God. Can you deny that your parents 'made' you? However, as a child of theirs, they also 'begot' you. This, I think, is the sense of the english word 'made' as it is used in this instance. Get a concordance and determine for youself.
Thirdly, further on in that same portion, the author uses the word 'inheritance'. The angles don't inherit anything; they are only creations and can become nothing more. Christ was begotten (John 3:16) of God, and as such is THE SON OF GOD. Therefore, He has INHERITED a more excellent name. We can also inherit from God even though we are only creations. However, unlike the angels, we have the possiblity of believing in Christ and become like Him. For when we believe on Him, we are adopted into the FAMILY OF GOD. This would NOT be possible if Christ was not God. For why would belief on Christ enable the Spirit of God to dwell within in each believer? Belief in God allows Him to dwell within each of His children. However, we are told to believe on Christ since He is the physical representation of God Himself, and is the proof given to us of God's existence and great love toward us.
slappy
hi slappy it'doesn't matter if the word is MADE, BEGOTTEN, CREATED it still puts God in the driving seat and First and jesus second after God and so not equal to God and therefore not God. (note there is no mention of holy spirit here)
Made so much better- from the point of his having emptied himself to the point of his re-glorification. Not rocket science there Reniaa
isaacaustin

You said: The man coming to jesus is just a rich man who comes along not an appostle and jesus rebukes him for calling him Good, then saying no one is Good except God ALONE emphasies on the alone singular, while your interpretaion has merit, given the setting that he is talking to a random jew on a different subject this was just a pick up rebuke at the start, and then the alone on God I would be dubious of how you interpretate it to mean, the situation is such that the man will have the obvious meaning which is jesus emphasising only God is Good not jesus.
Where did Jesus rebuke him Reniaa? That word is no where is this text. He simply asked a question as he always asked questions to put people into a position of having to think and commit. He emphasized God alone is good but in now way excluded himself from that class. He said nothing more than his question. If he made a comment stating that he himself is not good or that he himself is just a man then you would have a point. You are simply reading into Jesus words what you already believe.
You said: Hbr 1:4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
A bit of a red herring here- the discussion was on the distinction between greater and better. But I will answer it anyway...Made- from the point of his emptying himself and becoming a man to his re-glorification.
You said: you talk on my two witness text saying they are equal but isn't that contradictory after just looking at a scripture were jesus says "the father is greater than I"
No, it is not contradictory. I just showed you from Heb discussed above that 'greater' refers to position whereas 'better' refers to nature. George Bush is greater than you and I due to his position. he certainly is not better- as we are of the same nature.
You said: The point in the scripture john 10: 31-37 is jesus emphasised he was God's son not letting them calling him God stand unchallenged.
This in no way emphasized he was not letting them call him God. In fact, when he called himself God's son they knew exactly what he meant- that he was God in nature.
you said: This is talking of the son of man being led into the presence of the ancient of days, So here is jesus going to meet God and God gives him authority, this brings up many points firstly jesus is seen as a fully separate entity and in subjection to god as well as God being the one to give him power and glory etc
Reniaa...first of all as you know we all know that Jesus is a separate entity from the Father. So your using a verse to try to show them as separate entities and call the trinity false in one shot is simply strawman logic. As far as the Son receiving power from the father, being eternally submissive to the father...think of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve had the same nature but because one was the decision-maker and the other was to be in perfect subjection (1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.), they were only one flesh (Genesis 2:24). If Eve were to choose her own way (which she later did) that would make two decision-makers and thus they would no longer be acting as one entity. To act as one entity there can only be one decision-maker, the other must be the submissive agent.
Imagine that Adam and Eve had remained sinless and had a child, called Cain. Suppose we asked Cain who his boss is. Cain would reason that since Eve was in perfect submission and one flesh with Adam, both his parents were his boss. He would say that his boss is Adam and Eve.' If we asked him how many bosses he has he would reason that since Adam and Eve were ONE flesh, the authority was `one', so he would say that he has one boss. Adam and Eve were two persons but that does not mean does that not mean there were two bosses, a `big' boss and a `little' boss any more than two parents are considered 'big boss' and 'little boss. Adam and Eve were to be in perfect unity with perfect communication, acting as one entity with one decision-maker, one will. Therewas only one boss, Adam and Eve.
Now let's ask Eve if she has a boss. She would reason that since she was in perfect submission, and Adam was her head, yes she had a boss, Adam. Then how many human bosses are there in the Garden of Eden, one or two? One. Eve is a boss and she has a boss but that does that not mean that one plus one is two bosses. If Eve were not ONE flesh with Adam, if she acted on her own initiative, then there would be two bosses. But Eve was not to act on her own initiative and she was ONE flesh with her head Adam. Sorry Reniaa but one boss plus one completely submissive boss equals still equals one boss. Just because Eve was to be submissive, that does not mean she was inferior. She was not to be a separate independent human. She had the same nature as her head, they were both humanity, but they each had a different role. The same is true for the Father and the Son. They are both Deity, they have the same essential attributes of immortality, having the authority to judge and give life, they are both credited with making the universe, their glory is one. But the Father and Son are two persons and when Jehovah, the One True God, speaks, he speaks for us...They each have a different role, One is the source of all authority and decisions, the other is the perfect agent or servant that carries out the one will better than anyone could.
isaacaustin

Never does jesus consider himself equal to God and here is a favourite Jw scripture which is still valid because it emphasises that jesus can't be god because he does not have the knowledge that god has.
36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, [f] but only the Father.
Wrong again Reniaa. Since the Father is head Jesus at that moment did not know things that were for the Father to decide. We know from John chapter 14 that the Father, being greater in position and the source of all authority upon Jesus glorification gave the Son everything...who in turn sent us the Comforter.
isaacaustin

Ok Reniaa I think I have touched on every so-called proof text you have thrown in here....
isaacaustin

what cha want to talk about next.....

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

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