jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  JosephMalik

  Hebrews 1:3
  The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

  For the son to be the radiance of God's glory and exact representation of his being - he must be equal to God. He must posses divinity like his father. And like others brought out we do accept that he is a seperate entity from the father. Thus he sat "at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven".

  Lovelylil,

  Where does it say that in scripture "he must be equal to God"? Nowhere, you made that up. Then you say: He must possess divinity? Sure but what does that divinity mean? Equality to God you say? No! In this case the Son (the human being) that now also has non-human attributes like God. This was anticipated and even requested when our Lord prayed: Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. It is the humanity of the Christ that is being called the Son of God in scripture, not the non-human nature of the Word. Mr 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. In Hebrews we see this hypostasis nature now at the right hand of the Majesty.

  Lovelylil said: That is why the Old Testament statements about God being our only Creator, Savior, and Redeemer of mankind, were applied rightfully so to Christ in the New Testament.

  And where does it say that God would do that personally? Nowhere! I have already shown that God used the Word that became flesh to do that for Him and we know this for it is written: Mt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And again later: Mr 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. This is how God does things. This is why angels existed and even appeared in His name.

  Joseph
• 

  OUTLAW

  Reniaa started a thread,to Preach about Jesus..It ends up being a thread,about Jesus!..What about Reniaa?..This thread is supposed to be about Reniaa,not Jesus!.....OUTLAW
• 

  StAnn

  It is that oneness, that unity in Christ, that love for all fellow believers that epitomizes all that is Christ.

  Slappy, very well stated! As the Lord said, you will know his disciples by our love.

  StAnn
• 

  lovelylil

  Joseph,

  Thank you for your Q's.

  I am not in any way saying that Jesus is equal in position to the father. Obviously a Father is greater than the Son. But this "greater" has to do with position only, not nature.

  In Phillipians 2:5-8, the Apostle Paul states the same thing I am stating, that in nature, Jesus is God;

  5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
  6 Who, being in very nature [ a ] God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
  7 but made himself nothing,
  taking the very nature [ b ] of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.
  8 And being found in appearance as a man,
  he humbled himself
  and became obedient to death—
  even death on a cross!

  Paul is saying in very nature, Jesus was God. And that he did not try to grasp, or forcefully hold onto that equality he had with the father, but made himself nothing, taking a new nature, that of a servant...........

  I have a son, his name is Joseph too. I can say his father is greater than he is, in position of authority. Yet, they are both human beings...so, in their nature they are equal.

  None of the Angels nor anyone else in the universe can say they are equal in nature to our heavenly father, except his only begotten son.

  The ancient Jews understood what this meant, so they tried to stone Jesus for blashemy saying he is making himself equal to God, by proclaiming he was "God's very own Son".

  Hope this clears up the point better. I am not making anything up, the fact that Christ is God in nature and equal to God the father (Jehovah) is a biblical teaching, not one of my own.

  Peace, Lilly
• 

  lovelylil

  Joseph,

  One more thing. If you are trying to say that Jesus posesses Divinity but is not the true God of the old Testament, come in the flesh, then he must be a false God. Because the bible is clear there is only one true God and he created all things. Jesus cannot be 'a god" unless he is a false god.

  All other gods are false, including Satan the god of this system of things. Lilly
• 

  Deputy Dog

  reniaa

  17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

  18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [ d ] "

  20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

  why would jesus pick up the mans words if he actually was God?

  You have a bigger problem, if this is true. If Jesus wasn't "good" or perfect, he would have been unfit as a sacrifice for sin.

  firstly why would satan offer Jesus kingdoms and splender if he thought jesus was god indeed why would he consider such stuff would tempt god enough to worship him? and why would jesus reply that way if he was God surely he would say worship only me or something to that effect?

  Do you think Satan had the power to fullfil these offers?

  john 14 28:30

  28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.

  here jesus shows us that he never considers himself equal to god and obeys him.

  This is not a problem. You have made a strawman here. Jesus says "the Father is greater" not God

  john 8:14-18

  14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

  here jesus s showing he fulfills the testimony law on two witnesses but which two? himself and his father...2 separate people testifying (not 3 in1) how could jesus say this if he was saying he was God? and in fact wouldn't jesus be giving false testimony here if he was in fact god?

  Another strawman, as all trinitarians should know, it's one God in Three persons/one what - three whos

  John 10: 31-37

  31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
  

  33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

  34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [ e ] ? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son' ? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

  here jesus is accused of being God but he corrects them showing you can call many things God and then correctly identifying himself as God's son only. definitely a wasted opportunity for jesus to confirm all that trinititarians believe.

  Lets look at this in context.

  John 10:25

  Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

  Can a human give eternal life to another? Can you do this reniaa?

  29

  "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."

  Funny how you leave verse 30 out.

  31

  The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

  The Jews clearly understood what was happenning. Jesus was doing things that only God could do. Like giving people eternal life, among other things.

  34

  Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

  37

  "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

  It doesn't get much clearer than this

  38

  but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

  I see no denial.

  As we can see, every one of your Scriptures, point you out as a liar and/or a Pharisee.
• 

  StAnn

  Lill, picking up on your theme, it's kind of like our family relationships. My husband is the head of our family but, as his wife, I am his equal. Equal yet subordinate. We are very different people but we are a united couple, "one flesh," united in Christian marriage. We each have our own positions and responsibilities and yet we are "one." We are both necessary to the relationship but are still unique with different roles.

  StAnn
• 

  lovelylil

  My, my Joseph,

  Where in the OT does God state he will be the savior himself;

  Isaiah 43:11
  I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior

  Isaiah 45:21
  Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD ? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

  St.Ann, good point.
  
• 

  JosephMalik

  In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

  So the Son made all things.

  IssacAustin,

  No, the Son did not make all things like the spelling universe suggests in this translation. It is the world of mankind under discussion our forefathers and the prophets and not the universe. This is why the AV puts it this way: 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; All things is contextual just like the word God and many other words are. We should not add to them something not being discussed in the texts.

  Then based upon this translation you say: sustaining all things by his powerful word. Who sustains the universe?

  Christ did not come to earth to sustain the universe. Where is the verse discussing the universe you jumped to so you can use unrelated texts? Nowhere! It is still discussing the forefathers and the prophets mentioned in verse one who were messengers (also translated as angels) to the Jews and says: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Such forefathers and prophets never attained this inheritance or excellent name. Such forefathers were never begotten by God. All we have to do is read the text to get its meaning. John put it this way: John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

  Joseph
• 

  isaacaustin

  Great points StAnn...and to show distinction in roles yet equality in nature...

  Let's take a family of four...2 children ages 10 and 18. The husband, as head, is the breadwinner. His wife, equal in nature, fulfils the roles as shopper, banker, cleaning/laundry, etc. She is just as human but submits to her husband's authority. She is lesser is authority. Both children have roles as students. They are still of the same nature but have chores. They are lesser in authority...perhaps the 10 yr old has a bedtime while the 18 yr old has a curfew and other house rules. All share the same nature...all can answer the doorbell or the phone but that fact that the 10 year old can not go out all hours of the night or the 18 year old can not drink beer does not make them of a lesser nature...simply positional.