jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion. (page 11)

LovesDubs

I have never accepted the Trinity concept...not even as a Methodist. Why isnt it good enough that Jesus is GODS SON?? I think I could settle for that position.

I certainly have no problem with your view lovedubs. I can respect differing viepoints. obviously the issue becomes when one uses this viewpoint to judge themeselves as above others of differing views....as the WT does. And while I can see both sides of the argument, the WT uses dishonesty in presenting its view. I am not saying that that is how your viewpoint is formed. If one has come to this conclusion on their own, thru their own thinking and analysis that presents no problem and makes for thought-provoking discussion.

lovelylil

I accepted Jesus' divinity when I understood why the Jews said he committed blashemy by claiming to be God's Son.

Renaia and other JW's do not really meditate on this verse to understand it. They just use the WT books to interpret it. They will say well "you see right here Jesus admits he is ONLY God's Son and not God" or the will say "the Jews misunderstood what Jesus said".

The Jews DID NOT misunderstand what Jesus said, they knew full well he said he was the SON OF GOD.

The Jews understood that in order to be the Son of God, Christ would have to be in the same NATURE as God. So he is equal to God in his nature. Although the father is superior in position only.

This is not a hard concept to understand and is very plain in scripture but the JWs cannot do this becuase they have lowered Christ to a mere angel and refuse to accept what the Bible says.

Reniaa cannot respond to our specific points because she is too busy trying to find scriptures she thinks go against what we are saying. She is not understanding any of the points we are making. And in fact, she does not understand the verses she is trying to use against us either.

She simply cannot grasp the simple truth that the father and the son together make up the one God of the Bible.

I think this is a lost cause for now. Lilly

Pubsinger

Any thoughts on my views on page 5 of this thread?

isaacaustin

Exactly...son indicates equal nature. To use JW reasoning...a dog can not give birth to a cat...or a human to another species. Can a human pro-create deity?

So son reflects an identity.

isaacaustin

In John ch 5 Jesus tells the Jewish authorities that he can do nothing of his own initiative. The WT likes to hit on this verse (and only this verse) in this text. However reading on we see Jesus does not stop there...he tells them that he only does what he beholds the Father doing AND that the Father shows him ALL the things thta he himself does. So Jesus says that he does everything that the Father does exactly as the Father does them. He names things such as judging, making alove, forgiving sins...etc...thing which the OT attributes only to God...things which the Jews consider blasphemy for him to utter.

lovelylil

That is correct.

That is why the Bible says this about Christ;

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

For the son to be the radiance of God's glory and exact representation of his being - he must be equal to God. He must posses divinity like his father. And like others brought out we do accept that he is a seperate entity from the father. Thus he sat "at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven".

Maybe Renaia will understand if I make it more simple, Jehovah the Father is a seperate person from Christ Jesus the Son, with the Father being greater than the Son in position only, but in NATURE, they are equal. When Jesus said the father is greater than I, he was not addressing his nature. In nature they are equal and together make up what we call GOD. They together = the one God of the Bible.

That is why the Old Testament statements about God being our only Creator, Savior, and Redeemer of mankind, were applied rightfully so to Christ in the New Testament.

Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, something even most Jews stumbled on.

I would suggest for Renaia and others like her to pray to Jesus (the head of the church) and ask that the helper, the Holy Spirit be sent to them so that they can understand the Bible and not continue to stumble over who Christ really is.

Peace, Lilly

isaacaustin

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So the Son made all things.

3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,

lovelylil commented well on this...

sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Who sustains the universe?

Psalm 148 "1 Praise Jah, you people! Praise Jehovah from the heavens, Praise him in the heights 2 Praise him, all you his angels. Praise him, all you his army. 3 Praise him, you sun and moon. Praise him, all you stars of light. 4 Praise him, you heavens of the heavens, And you waters that are above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of Jehovah; For he himself commanded, and they were created. 6 And he keeps them standing forever, to time indefinite. A regulation he has given, and it will not pass away."

Right out of the NWT. And how does Jehovah sustain all things? A regulation. How does the Son sustain all things? By his powerful word, or as the NWT says "the word of his power". Jehovah in Psalms here is identified as the person of Jesus.

After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

How did the Jews react to Jesus claim that he can forgive sins? The accounts are in mrk 2 and Luke 5- the replies were that he was speaking blasphemies, no one can forgive sins except one- God. Jesus did not correct this statement but simply said that they needed to know he had authority to forgive sins. So he agreed with their statement as far as only God being able to forgive sins.

snowbird

Reniaa, in answer to your opposition to Jesus being the Ancient of Days; you mentioned the absurdity of Jesus approaching Jesus. Please to remember in Daniel's day there was no Jesus, as he had not been begotten yet. It was a vision portraying future happenings.

Tell me, what do you think of Micah 5:1?

Or, how about this vision of John recorded in Revelation 5? Note how the Lamb is given equal praise with the Father. From The Message Bible:

Revelation 5:6 -10 So I looked, and there, surrounded by Throne, Animals, and Elders, was a Lamb, slaughtered but standing tall. Seven horns he had, and seven eyes, the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the earth. He came to the One Seated on the Throne and took the scroll from his right hand. The moment he took the scroll, the Four Animals and Twenty-four Elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb. Each had a harp and each had a bowl, a gold bowl filled with incense, the prayers of God's holy people. And they sang a new song:

Worthy! Take the scroll, open its seals.
Slain! Paying in blood, you bought men and women,
Bought them back from all over the earth,
Bought them back for God.
Then you made them a Kingdom, Priests for our God,
Priest-kings to rule over the earth.

11 -14 I looked again. I heard a company of Angels around the Throne, the Animals, and the Elders—ten thousand times ten thousand their number, thousand after thousand after thousand in full song:

The slain Lamb is worthy!
Take the power, the wealth, the wisdom, the strength!
Take the honor, the glory, the blessing! Then I heard every creature in Heaven and earth, in underworld and sea, join in, all voices in all places, singing:

To the One on the Throne! To the Lamb!
The blessing, the honor, the glory, the strength,
For age after age after age. The Four Animals called out,"Oh, Yes!" The Elders fell to their knees and worshiped.

If, according to the WT, those 24 Elders are a composite of all the anointed, and the remnant of the anointed is associated with the WT, they are doing the Lamb a disservice by refusing to worship Him.

O what a tangled web we weave ... Tee hee hee.

Sylvia

StAnn

Lill, Isaac, Mark -

I find it very heartwarming to read your posts. To think, you guys USED to be JWs! Isn't it wonderful what happens to us when we embrace Christ?

I think the key is that it takes humility to accept that we don't know all of the answers on our own. We have to learn to push our own egos out of the way and let God teach us. This is something that a hardcore Dub can't do, because they are deluded into believing they are the "elite," chosen out of this world by Jehovah and that they can proof text themselves out of any situation. They are so bent on "stumping" people by restating ad nauseum the lies of the WTS that they don't realize they don't actually win arguments--people just give up talking to them because they see how narrow-minded and pig-headed they are and how falsely filled with pride and arrogance they are.

I admire you three (and many of the other posters on this thread whose names escape me at the moment) for putting your own egos aside and allowing the Holy Spirit to work in your hearts.

A friend of mine left the Dubs four months ago. One of the reasons she gave was that they "took Jesus away from her." She used to be Baptist. If only these poor, deluded Dubs realized what they are giving up for a false feeling of superiority.

StAnn

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

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