Yes, reading the whole of Matthew 23 you find that Jesus was a very independent thinker indeed
Hi I hope i am welcome
by cantleave 188 Replies latest jw friends
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Spike Tassel
Spike Tassel (Post 78) re The-Borg (Post 349) and mrsjones5 (Post 9503): I could wish Reniaa and I were already such good friends, but she's not responded to any of my PMs so far. Hopefully she sees this and acknowledges what you're saying. She's very good at apologizing, I've found, when it is actually required. I find her very honest in this aspect. As for Matthew 23, Jesus showed that he knew his audience's culture and attitudes well, even referring to them hiding Jehovah's name and righteous requirements and approval of Jesus, when Jesus is reported as saying the words of verse 39: "For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, 'Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name!' " This clearly shows what type of independent thinking Jesus has always had — a model for us to follow closely.
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Vinny
Dear Cantleave,
I have been in your shoes as well, as have so many others today. But unlike you I was not born into the faith, so was in a better position to walk away rather than being handcuffed as you obviously will be.
The Watchtower is not God's organization! And I have proven that to myself, with unbiased eyes and truly heartfelt and thorough examinations.
Here is my own story out: http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/922/t/Letter-of-disassociation.html
I too was an elder, the school overseer, had assembly parts, bookstudy overseer, gave more talks than I can remember and everything else that we do.
Leaving was not easy at the time, but for me, it really was the right thing to do. Since then my wife, my pioneer daughter and one son have also left entirely. My wife's son (my 24 year old stepson, though I raised him since he was six) is still in and shuns us all today. Will not even answer our calls. And has directly stated that, "we need to go to the meetings", to have any relationship with him and or our first grandson (now three years old). How's that for some good old emotional blackmail as incentive to go back!
The JW faith is a religion and nothing more. There is some good in it too. But the evidence that God has directed the Watchtower as his channel is simply not there.
I have debated over the past three years with the most capable JW's and am today 100 percent certain that there is no possible explanation available that can justify all this: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm
Did Jehovah get all these things and Watchtower bad ideas and mistakes wrong again and again? Or was it the WT leaders who CLAIMED God was directing them that got those things wrong again and again?
We all know the answer.
We are not talking about a few things wrong. But literally THOUSANDS and pages and pages of just bad news here. Most of which the average Witness has no idea about. Which of course is by design.
Did Jehovah get the forbidding of Vaccinations, Organ transplants and Alternative Military Service WRONG FOR A COMBINED 83 YEARS?
Or, is the evidence rather clear that instead, the Governing Body (nothing more than a group of imperfect men from New York City), simply gave their best guess and then had to eventually REVERSE all of these positions despite so many Witnesses having to suffer consequences during the time they were enforced as current JW policies?
Did Jehovah also get all those end of the world predictions, in writing, wrong as well?
1914 came and went!
1925 came and went!
Beth Sarim (a huge watchtower humiliation) came and went!
1975 came and went!
The generation of 1914 came and went!
The new millennium (year 2000) came and went!
Who was it that made all those false predictions, in writing; God, or those same WT leaders who CLAIM that God is using them alone, once again?
We all know the answer.
Is it not at least reasonable to think that God would choose an organization that does not have one of the absolute WORST track records over the past 100 years of any religion on the earth as his own chosen channel today?
And here is a thread I put together that proves the Watchtower Society is Wrong on blood today:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/medical/150613/1/WT-SOCIETY-IS-WRONG-ON-BLOOD
Which still causes many unnecessary deaths even now.
I too spent many years in the organization, as you have. I prevented my own kids from pursuing any kind of college education. Prevented them from playing any organized sports or school plays, after school clubs, boyscouts, non JW friends and so much more.
I HOPED I could prove that everything I believed and taught to others for the past 15 years was "the truth".
But the more I honestly examined the evidence the more it became clearer to me that the only people who think God has chosen the JW's for anything at all, are JW's themselves about themselves.
I too am 1000 percent convinced that God exists. And I have examined along with debated with atheists extensively on many sites many times. I am content now that I simply do not have all the answers as JW's often claim to have.
I see the hand of God in the lives of many other people, from numerous other faiths, along with some who choose no particular faith at all, many times now.
Yet how presumptuous and arrogant of us to believe and teach that all people in the world need to become a JW in order to have God's blessing in their lives.
At this time I tend to lean towards belief in a transcendent God that rises above all religions on the earth today and whose hand is available to all.
By leaving the JW world and weekly routine I have found a happier life. Same with the rest of my family. Freedom from a controlling religious institution, that makes great claims all the while condemning all other people and religions can do that.
But that is my journey. You have sound reasons to stay somewhat in, IMO. It can just become very difficult to maintain living a lie from all that I have seen and heard since leaving three years ago. At one point I could not sit through even one more meeting knowing it was not what I had believed and had been taught it was.
But I do wish you the very best in your attempts to find some balance and normalcy throughout all of this.
One extreme recommendation from my point of view that I'd like to make is to read Ray Franz's two oustanding books. Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom.
Both can be found purchased in book form or downloadable as PDF's (for privacy) here:
http://www.commentarypress.com/Publication/English.html
He is a very sincere and humble man as well as a devout Christian today. He was a Governing Body member for over nine years. His insights are simply invaluable for anybody wanting to examine the JW religion in an honest and complete light.
I wish you and yours the very best!
And I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.
Take care,
Vinny
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MidwichCuckoo
Morning cantleave - and welcome. Firstly, NO, you're not a hypocrite (the only hypocrite I've noticed on this site is Reniaa) - the way I see it is you're a prisoner of a Cult, and those 'born in' have little choice. You know you have a lot to lose by leaving, and that's how the WT operates, along with forbidding any freedom of thought and independent study. You're not alone in your situation, there are many here with very similar experiences. You'll find a lot of valuable information on this site. I look forward to reading more of your posts/experiences. Welcome also Jando
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Heaven
Welcome, cantleave!
You said: But when the men who are suspossed to be shepherding the congregation do so in such a judgemental manner, often making accusations that that cannot be substantiated, so that they can feel important, I have great difficulty.
Between this and the fact that JWs are urged not to associate with their 'worldly' family members and that some are urged to 'kick their unbelieving children to the curb' is evidence that this organization is NOT inspired of God and Christ, but of Satan. As my Mom told me years ago when I was a child, one of Satan's primary goals is to break up families. The WTS does this SO well.
Perhaps your 'staying in' is an opportunity to start quietly and supportively showing others the obvious problems and errors with the WTS. There are others here who do the same. You could be a sort of 'man of the inside'. Time and time again people have tried directly and honestly to show the WTS the error of their ways, as well as a wish to correct and improve things only to be DF'ed (my uncle was one). This is one big reason it is identified as a destructive religious cult. You can't question 'Mother'.
Be very watchful of your children. Many JWs suffer from mental illness because of the focus on 'everything is bad' and the fact that they have no reassurance that they will make it through Armageddon or even be considered for resurrection if they pass on. The WTS is NOT the Truth.
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mouthy
recognize only Jesus Christ as my leader,<<<<SPIKE!!!!! good for you... You have come a long way then.
You will notice reniaa hasnt recognized that yet...
Vinny GREAT POST!!!!! -
LUKEWARM
WELCOME Cantleave!!!!
Please do not be too hard on yourself by feeling hypocritical - you are doing the best you can to preserve some normalcy to your situation.
I feel for you - unsure if your wife is open minded, but raising children in something you are beginning to see the cracks in is heartbreaking!
I was such a naive witness (born in) and am still "in" for family reasons. I also went to basics as you outline...
In terms of going back to basics that is exactly what I am doing. I am re-evaluating what my faith means to me. I am studying things with an open mind, I refuse to be influenced by anyone's (or organisation's) preconcieved ideas. I really am doing what I have been advised by the society, taking my personal study very seriously. I am starting by reading the bible, checking to see with more sources than you can imagine, whether the interpretation I have been sold for my entire life really stacks up.
And then one day on this site I found out about Ray Franz, an anointed governing body member who resigned because he had a "crisis of conscience"! I could not believe what I was reading and can wholeheartedly recommend vinny's post and comments in this regard
One extreme recommendation from my point of view that I'd like to make is to read Ray Franz's two oustanding books. Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom.
Both can be found purchased in book form or downloadable as PDF's (for privacy) here:http://www.commentarypress.com/Publication/English.html
He is a very sincere and humble man as well as a devout Christian today. He was a Governing Body member for over nine years. His insights are simply invaluable for anybody wanting to examine the JW religion in an honest and complete light.
So far I have "placed" this book with 3 of my friends in the cong who never knew about the real issues...
If you are up to proving to yourself that JW have the "truth" then these 2 books I suspect, will turn your world up-side down (as it did mine). Sit down and strap yourself in as I have a feeling your are in for a rough ride - well worth it in the end as you will be clear on the issues the WBTS never elaborates on when discussing apostates in their publications, but more importantly, you will have educated yourself about the counter-arguments which will empower you to make an informed decision for yourself, your family and perhaps your friends...
Look forward to more of your posts
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rebel8
You WILL be outed soon ,believe me.-mouthy Reniaa
Posting Guidelines To ensure all users feel safe and keen to participate, please avoid: 1. Insulting, threatening or provoking language
Am I the only one who thinks Reniaa just threatened Mouthy?
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reniaa
lol rebel please go back a few pages, you'll find i was quoting mouthy obviously not very well if you thought the threat was by me,
Mouthy says she didn't mean it that way so I have given her the benefit of the doubt. I think she just meant if I keep posting on here the Jws themselves will find me out.
Reniaa
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reniaa
And were is ray franz lukewarm? enjoying the money from the sales of his books no doubt as well as not being in any religion or promoting a faith in God. he is an apostate by action his fruitage is just to take away people's faith. I would respect him more if he had been a russel type and saw the wrongdoing then setting up a faith that did not do the wrongs but kept what he felt was the purity. but he didn't he went commercial instead.
Reniaa