Raymond Franz and UN

by kpax 150 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    MadA,

    I doubt that there is any xjw who is unappreciative of what RF has done thus far, but it is ridiculous to allow such appreciation to rise to a level of worship that would accept and justify the possibility that RF may die without disclosing all he knows about the WTS.

    Whilst your ire is understood, your reasoning is not.

    Where you see 'worship' others see a victim of the same mental conditioning that engulfed you as a JW and then move understand that issue. All of us will die at some stage never having declared all we know about many other equally important experiences in our lives.

    My father for example was a sniper in WWII. He would not discuss one moment of his experiences with me and I only found out the horrors he endured and perpetuated from other members of his unit. Were he alive would you have him research the names of his victims, trace the members of the surviving families, make reparations to them for what he did to their fathers? Some dogs MadA, are best left sleeping in peace as once awake they can bite the wrong person in the wrong place.

    As I have said before Ray Franz has on more than one occasion apologized publicly for the part he played in helping to develop the ideals of the WTS, ideals he now accepts harmed others.

    He painstakingly researched and wrote two books that have provided thousands of persons with enough information to ensure that they completely understand the WTS and its modus operandi. He obviously thought long and hard about what he would included and what he would not and did this for good reason, least of all being the legal vagaries placed on all printed literature. He obviously only included what could be proved in the final event.

    His wrtings have liberated many, not just from the chains of WTS thinking but from imprisonment to other ‘Organizations’. He was fortunate enough to be an accomplished writer, and had he not written these books all we would have had is third party statements of his experiences which would certainly not have the same affect on the reader.

    Worship? Nonsense. Making excuses for the man? More nonsense. While a JW I met RF on a number of occasions as an acting member of the GB, my feelings toward him now are not very different. He is a decent enough fellow who spent too long trying to make sense of the senseless, but of course he has his failings. We have close friends in common, many of whom are still ‘inside’ and still sympathetic to his cause and in this way he left a ticking bomb behind him, but it seems to me MadA, that by your demands that he ‘do more’, you are the one that is elevating him beyond the human.

    As far as most of us are concerned he has paid his debt in full, that some may feel that he did not pay enough interest on his loan is not particularly helpful.

    Teejay, has encapsulated all the components of this issue very clearly and in a reasoned manner. Read his posts again - you will learn much from them.

    Best regards -- HS

  • MadApostate
    MadApostate

    HS:

    Your post is nothing but a rehash/summary of the previous red herrings, strawmen, misplaced blamegames, etc., all resulting from your own lingering JW mentality that you nicely document.
    Only a "RF worship" mentality can justify RF not making every effort possible to disclose what he knows.

    Teejay's post is an infantile joke.

    The obvious answer would be for RF's sychophants to stop accepting whatever RF decides to provide, and tactfully but firmly, unitedly make it known that it is unacceptable conduct for him to not somehow make an effort of full disclosure.

    Will this happen? Obviously not.

    Those of you who are graced with RF's presence or communication most likely still accord him the same deference you would if you were still a JW and he were still a GB member. Thus, RF is only partly to blame, since you bunch of insider worshippers are "enablers".

    My rantings are obviously not aimed at Ray, since it has been made known that he never reads here. As usual, my rantings are aimed at the
    xjw gb, xjw zone, district, and circuit overseers that exist defacto despite everyone's denial.

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    MA,

    With respect, such allegations will do nothing but polarize people. I for example, don't know RF, have no connections with high-ups in the WTS, and never had. I was never more than a MS and I come from a relatively modest working class background. What you say is utter nonsense.

    Yet you are appealing to this supposed "elite" to get you the information you want. Get it yourself. Write to RF and make your concerns known - ask him yourself. See if he'll meet with you. It's a free world - I suspect, MA, that it is you who has yet to throw off the WTS shackles. That's ok, we all go through it, but, please, don't throw out groundless accusations. See past your anger.

    Best, and Merry Christmas from one who appreciates your considerable efforts on the UN issue.

    Lionel

  • Julie
    Julie

    Greetings Mad Apostate,

    You said (among other things):

    Teejay's post is an infantile joke.

    I have to disagree with you here MA. While I have been witness to some rather heinous posts by Teejay the ones in this thread merit serious consideration and are pretty darned good. He's also pretty swift on the political issues too (which actually ties in nicely with this thread so that makes sense). And if the temptation crosses your mind to consider me a Teejay-groupie (or whatever your fav. term may be), save a little face and forget it. You would be laughed off this board. Of course your words to Hillary Step will probably get you that anyway.....

    Julie

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Avenger and Madapostate,

    All this discussion and the emotions it is releasing is based on an assumption that Ray is withholding useful information. So many here have reason to be upset with the WT but are we on a productive course if we by mistake focus on someone who has done all he can to help us? The problem seems only to be the unfounded suspicion that Ray is not telling everything he could. Why get worked up about what we do not know and cannot prove?

    You both have friends here who are trying to assure you that from their knowledge and even personal experience with RF he has done everything he can to help you and release you. We are not conspirators nor moles but victims and friends. RELAX bros.

    Teejay, JT, LPH and HS,

    You guys have all been so kind, and understanding. I’m taking lessons. Good reasoning from the mind and heart.

    Jst2laws

  • MadApostate
    MadApostate

    Thanks for your post Julie.

    It demonstrates my point extremely well.

    RFWorshippers will even humble themselves to glorifying a post of someone they dislike if it may possibly be a positive for their "god".

    Kinda like Osama's moslems, haikari, ....

    Anymore RFWorshippers waiting to prostrate themselves at this temple?

  • Tina
    Tina

    Madap,
    Yes you have been ranting at RF,now suddenly its a bunch of other people? Some more conspiracy eh?
    There have been some truly excellent replies here.And teejays are superior!
    Your perspective (and that of a couple others) is waaaaaaay off here.
    The real issue here as I've seen it developed ,is some unrealistic expectations of others and RF , who have already given some of the tools needed to clear the WTS dirt out of our minds and hearts.

    Fact is,in the real world,no one is obligated to meet our expectations.That may make some angry or unhappy but thats how it works in the real world.

    Our task in life (and for closure) is to recognize and accept this.
    RF has given what he can. He suffered,we all suffered. No one here has cornered the market on pain and suffering re:WTS.
    Next part of the task is taking these emotions and learn how to master them rather than have them conquer us.
    This we do by personal effort hard work ,honesty and accepting personal responsibility for ourselves,our happiness. That we do 'create' our internal worlds.
    Are we letting the the past rule our present? Changes,real ones come from within. We take tools/info like RF shared,use it to make positive changes in our lives.
    The defiance I see here,is just one form of denial,a way of clinging onto to easy answers and keeping ones 'victim' role.
    Part 2 later,sorry.

    Ill just sum this up by saying a few here have this grandiose sense of entitlement. That others in the world OWE them more that can be given. It's sick,dysfunctional,irrational mindset w/ the attendant emotions gone wild. You havent left the WTS,it still controls you,your emotions,your attitude,your perceptions. T

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • MadApostate
    MadApostate

    Jaws:

    You have already posted in this thread, so don't come forward with an outstretched hand, with a daggar concealed in the sleeve.

    I have no friends here, because I want none.

    Any objective, intelligent person who lurks here for any period of time prior to ever posting can easily discern that practically every intelligent, educated person here has given up their objectivity in order to "fit in" and make friends.

    I decided not to do so knowing full well the price (which is not that great since I'm not fully out of the jw closet).

    I prefer the freedom to post what the "silentlambs" at this site are thinking, but dare not post, lest they destroy their social bonds.

    SO, come on all you RFWorshippers, come out and show yourselves for what you truly are.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    MadA,

    RFWorshippers will even humble themselves to glorifying a post of someone they dislike if it may possibly be a positive for their "god".
    This statement is very clear evidence that you are lacking in all the skills neccessary to be able to present a reasoned argument on this issue.

    The disengenous way that you attempt to divert attention away from the more useful arguments of this thread by spray-painting everyone who opposes your view with the same color, does nothing but make you look rather foolish.

    I agree with you that my argument is 're-hashed', in the sense that it is a repetition of arguments on this thread that many have patiently made for you in an attempt to see the 'penny drop'. We have failed.

    As Zimmerman once said, 'The half-learned is more dangerous than the simpleton'.

    HS

  • teejay
    teejay

    Julie,

    I have been witness to some rather heinous posts by Teejay...

    Heinous posts? Heinous posts??? Man! That hurt... cuts me deep... but I'll get over it.

    And if the temptation crosses your mind to consider me a Teejay-groupie save a little face and forget it.

    Come on... admit it, Julie!! You're a groupie and we all know it. "teejay groupie." Has a nice ring to it.
    --------------------

    jst2laws,

    You both have friends here who are trying to assure you that from their knowledge and even personal experience with RF he has done everything he can to help you and release you. We are not conspirators nor moles but victims and friends.

    Beautiful. Kinda got me choked up. Well said and very true.
    --------------------

    MadApostate

    RFWorshippers will even humble themselves to glorifying a post of someone they dislike if it may possibly be a positive for their "god"...

    I give up. You are right and we're all wrong.

    Happy?

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