Raymond Franz and UN

by kpax 150 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    LPH,

    I agree.

    I often wished that my father/mother who lived intimately with Judge Rutherford, would have revealed more about him. They both went to thier graves knowing salacious details, never revealed to anyone.

    Even if they had of done so, I have witnessed the feeding frenzy on this and other board's, when such info is released. Some suggesting the story is false, or not accurate, other's who just demand more proof. You can't win.

    What more information could RF offer, than what he has already published? I suggest any unsubstantiated personal observations he may have been privy to, would simply be torn apart by the 'facts only gang'. It's a pity, because it is those personal observations (proveable or not) that give all the "facts" about the lieing upper echelon of WTBS officer's and elite some real teeth. It is those observations that take the whole mess outa of the realm of yea or nay dogma/doctrine into the light of human feelings and real evidence of whether the teachings have any benefit on the lives of those that adhere to them.

    So it is a real loss we can't imbibe in those stories. Many like myself who have tried to reveal some of these personal (unsubstantiated) stories, will no longer do so.....for the above reason's.

    Danny

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello Skally,

    I would just like to make clear for the sake of those who might have been confused, that the statement in which you quote the words uninterested and aging in describing RF attitude were not written by myself.

    What I did write was that RF is working on projects as we speak. I cannot of course take responsibility for the other posters viewpoint. I can only speak for my own.

    My comment regarding your reactive inclinations to many posts to this Board is a matter of public record and you are of course entitled to react in any way you wish, to any post you wish. However Skally, you must expect that people may vehemently disagree with your viewpoints as I did with your attack on RF, which seemed to me did not originate from a clear grasp of the facts and could result in public damage to a persons reputation who is not here to defend themselves.

    If you cannot stomach contemplating my own viewpoint on RF and his motivations, I would suggest you read the posts by Teejay and Lionel noted above as they encapsulate the whole issue very nicely.

    Kindest regards -- HS

  • teejay
    teejay

    With all due respect, you must understand the feelings of anger and helplessness of "Avengers" and "sf" (myself included).

    Believe me, Trotafox, I DO understand. I've had practically every single emotion a person raised in the truth can have after leaving it, and have survived them all. Even though I've made my 'peace' with the WTS, there are several members of my family and many longtime friends, some going back to my childhood, who are still devout Dubs. Foremost among these is my mother. I'll use her as an example to make a point.

    The problem is that, just as when learning the truth you think everyone needs to hear this, when learning the truth about 'the truth', you think every single right-minded Dub that you know NEEDS TO HEAR/SEE/READ THIS. You try to share it in dibs and dabs and come to find that your assumption was waaay wrong. They may NEED to hear it... they don't WANT to hear it. People are different and take different paths.

    The end result is that you end up alienating people and not taking a single step toward your goal of enlightening them. On the contrary, you cause them to wrap 'the truth' even tighter around them and shun you, ending any hope you might have had in trying to open their eyes.

    It would kill my mother if she knew 1/3 of what I do. She's comfortable where she is and I'm happy as a pig in slop that she's happy. She's pioneering, has Witness buddies her age, has a study schedule, meeting schedule, assembly schedule. She takes Dub tours to Bethel every year and is living the life. She has that right and I will protect it. If necessary, I will stand between her and the truth about the truth. I'm very serious and comfortable with that role, believe me. As I've said, I've made my peace with the Evil Empire.

    People should have the freedom to live as they choose, even if I think they could do 'better.' Who am I to say what's better FOR THEM anyway? It's one of the reasons I never will DA myself or allow myself to be df'd -- to maintain the relationship with my moms but it's paid off.

    Over time, she's come to me (as if I was an elder) with questions relative to situations in her Hall and biblical questions as well. She knows that, for one, I KNOW and 2. she can trust me even though her oldest son (my knuckle head older brother) is a soon-to-be elder that she doesn't talk to about such matters. It's taken some work, some tip-toeing, learning when to shut the fuck up, but the relationship is good and for her remaining years I aim to keep it that way.

    With family and friends still in the chains of the WTS, one gets very desperate as to what to do. To sit back and do nothing is crazy. We'd love to see the Borg tumble in bits and pieces but it's an overwhelming task. Take it apart brick by brick? Where do you start? We need all the help we can get. That's the frustration.

    You might change some fringe elements, but the Catholic Church is every bit as unholy as the WTS and has *IT* been disassembled? One of the primary needs of any organization is to survive. The WTS will, too, in some form. Trust me. Those who make up the rank and file are exactly where they want to be. When/if the time comes and they begin to question, there are multiple avenues where they can find ready answers. If that were to happen for my mom (it won't) I'll be ready to help.

    I could be wrong about some of this, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

    peace,
    tj

  • kpax
    kpax

    RF is free to do whatever he wants! But if he knows things that the general public or even the JW's do not know and those things can clear up many minds regarding indoctrination, it is his love and compassion that will bring out the truth. It is not his job to decide what we should know or not know!

    No more secrets!

    Kpax

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Tj,

    You have played the game alot smarter than some of us.

    My doubts and questions about the org started while still a practicing 'society man', so with that warped sense, at the time the only way out for me, was to violate the rules=stop the pain=get df.

    I suffered for several year's, feeling unworthy, which translated into making excuses for jw's. They are at least remaining faithful, unlike me, I even upheld thier own shunning of me!

    In time looking from outside, the bible, the doctrine, the whole history of the borg, started a very long process of self discovery. I say self because there was no internet, no COC or other sources of info...in fact I didn't even read COC until around the mid nineties.

    Today I no longer have any of those original 'mind warps', I no longer consider it my job or even right, to convince any of my relatives to change. As you say, people have a right to choose.

    Would I love them to wake up, you bet. I no longer loose any sleep over it.

    If anybody thinks it's thier job to do this kind of work, more power to them, but don't pass judgement on me for not considering it a priority in my life.

    Glad you were wise enough to arrange things, so you could keep a relationship with your mother. Very wise my friend.

    Danny

  • sf
    sf

    "you must expect that people may vehemently disagree with your viewpoints as I did with your attack on RF, which seemed to me did not originate from a clear grasp of the facts and could result in public damage to a persons reputation who is not here to defend themselves."

    Hahahaha, excuse me...attack? That was what YOU saw, and maybe others. Not my concern. I am not interesting in Mr. FRANZ' feelings; as it SEEMS he is too UNINTERESTED in certain things that are FELT by others. If you see that as an "attack" you are welcomed to it.

    How would YOU KNOW where facts that I, MYSELF, have gathered? Hw could you even possibly KNOW what I, MYSELF, have gathered?

    Damage???????

    Oh "Brother"...I won't even go here.

    sKally, decking the kingdom halls with elders berries

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    kpax,

    "It is not his job to decide what we should know or not know!"

    That is absolutely correct, and, as far as I know he neither claims that right nor has anyone suggested that he has that right except when it comes to telling what _he_ knows. Just as we all have that right. It _is_ up to him how much he decides to reveal because he has the right to exercise his judgment, as does any author, about what he says. Danny's two posts make some excellent points on this. He has to consider how what he says will affect him, his family, the WTS, JWs and everyone else. Onl he can make that decision.

    How do we know that he hasn't revealed all that he knows that can be adequately documented? If he wrote another book then couldn't we claim that there must be even more that he hasn't told us? Where does it end? The simple fact is that it is RF's right to do what he thinks is best. He may be mistaken or he may or not, or, most likely the true situation is somewhere in between. But, short of a Vulcan mind meld we can never know whether he has told us "everything" that matters. It's his call and I don't think it's fair to condemn him based on suspicion.

    Part of the problem, I think, is in according RF a position he does not want - he is not the King of the Apostates (a position that does not, and should not exist.) He's just an exJW, albeit an influential one, who has told his story as he sees fit. He's under no obligation to do or say anything. Of course, people have the right to criticize him and others have the right to defend him. But in the end it won't make an iota of difference because RF will do as he sees fit to do. That is unless we decide to go and torture him in his garage till he coughs up. Short of that what's the point of this discussion?

    Skally, would you think that RF should, perhaps, reveal details of private conversations with others, even if those details would put the Society in a negative light? I am only speculating, but perhaps that is part of the reason that RF has decided not to say more than he has. Or maybe there really isn't much more of substance to say. My point is that RF knows and he alone.

    LPH

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step
    Hahahaha, excuse me...attack? That was what YOU saw, and maybe others. Not my concern. I am not interesting in Mr. FRANZ' feelings; as it SEEMS he is too UNINTERESTED in certain things that are FELT by others. If you see that as an "attack" you are welcomed to it.

    lol - I think that you may have a plum job waiting for you as a member of Idi Amin's Diplomatic Corp.

    Best regards - HS

  • teejay
    teejay

    Avengers:

    quote:I'm certain he considers the WT experience a closed chapter in his life

    I say that if he knows anything he has to come forward. If he doesn't he's a liar just like the WT.

    ********

    Kpax:

    RF is free to do whatever he wants! But if he knows things that the general public or even the JW's do not know and those things can clear up many minds regarding indoctrination, it is his love and compassion that will bring out the truth. It is not his job to decide what we should know or not know!
    I wasn't going to comment on this... let it slide... but hell...

    In my not so humble opinion, it's not Ray's job to help anyone and everyone of us exJWs find closure with the WTS. Ray could know enough to write fifteen more best sellers and he can keep it ALL to himself... every last word... as far as I'm concerned. Would I like for him to say more? Of course, but I don't think he owes me a damn thing. I'm happy w/ the gift he's given me already.

    This is America, and just because HE knows something doesn't mean I have to know the same. He's done enough. He's given many thousands a gift for which we can never repay. If he utters not a single word in addition to what he's already said, good for him.

    Live long, galant Ray Franz. You will always be a Prince in my book.

    ---------------

    You have played the game alot smarter than some of us... Glad you were wise enough to arrange things, so you could keep a relationship with your mother. Very wise my friend.

    What can I say, Danny? Every once in a while a plan of mine works -- even a blind dog stumbles onto a bone... now and then. Wish my plan concerning the scholarship that I got twenty years ago would've turned out better. I thought the end was coming, so I declined to take advantage of it. Not all of my plans work out so good.

    My doubts and questions about the org started while still a practicing 'society man'... at the time the only way out for me, was to violate the rules=stop the pain=get df... I suffered for several year's, feeling unworthy... In time looking from outside, the bible, the doctrine, the whole history of the borg, started a very long process of self discovery. I say self because there was no internet, no COC or other sources of info...

    You folks that left before the rise of the Internet have my admiration. I mean that. I was able to discover some important details from the likes of Randy ( http://www.freeminds.organization/)... people who knew the inside scoop and was willing to share it... pool it all in one place. Made research, and my departure, easier on the mind AND conscience.

    Translation: no guilt; no second-guessing. Ray played a big part in that for me. Answered a lot of my lifelong questions. For me, he's done enough. More than enough. If there is one, may God bless him.

    tj

  • sf
    sf

    "lol - I think that you may have a plum job waiting for you as a member of Idi Amin's Diplomatic Corp."

    You mean because MY thinking does NOT align with yours? It never will...now.

    bwahhhroflol

    Meet me in yahoo...yahoo!

    sKally, decking the kingdumb halls with elders (insert fav name) berries

    wcrestnpeace

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