Raymond Franz and UN

by kpax 150 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  teejay

  Maybe the wt has seen fit to spread some disbursments his way to keep him from airing more of their dirty laundrey. Is this too far fetched? I don't think that it is outside his character.

  Saint,

  Don't take this wrong -- you've become one of my favorites here. But imo your're crazy if you think that Ray has any connection with the WTS. I don't know the man personally, but based on what I DO know of him suggests that he is as connected to the WTS as he is the Catholic Church.

  Yes, he refused to get down and dirty by revealing the personal imperfections of the people and situations covered in his books. For one, I think he's simply above doing anything like that. Also, he understood that would only demean his argument. His readers -- even diehard critics of the organization -- would all recognize the simple reality that all people have faults and the whole story concerning the situations he revealed would never be known. He did nothing but garner my huge respect in avoiding the tabloid stuff.

  I think he's been mute publicly about the JW/UN thing and all the other goings-on in Brooklyn simply because he has moved on spiritually, mentally, psychologically. In other words, the man has grown. His interests aren't what they once were. That happens to thinking people.

  Personally, I can understand that outlook. I have only a passing interest in the JW/UN thing myself, even though I lived under the weight of the Society's position on political involvements/neutrality for many, many years. It's like when I go back home and see that they've painted my old elementary school. "Oh, that's nice. What else is new?" I'm no longer a Witness and the weird positions of the WTS have zero influence or meaning in my life. I couldn't care less what they do anymore. I think Ray is the same.

  Last, I'm always intrigued by people that 'wonder what Ray thinks' when something like the UN story breaks. But then, perhaps that's just another step to standing on one's own two feet. In the end, who cares what Ray thinks? Don't get me wrong... I love the man and mark him as a personal hero of mine (and I don't have many), but his opinion is only that -- one man's opinion. I think he'd be proud to know that a foster son of his who he's never met has grown to the point of not placing too much weight in the words of another man.

  I think that is the goal he intended for each person who read his words. For me, it's his legacy.

  peace,
  tj
• 

  MacHislopp

  Hello everyone,

  with all due respect for each others opinions,

  I do agree with Island Woman i.e.

  "...Raymond Franz has done more than enough for us! The UN thing pales in comparison to his exposure of the inner workings of the Governing Body!"

  Very true indeed.

  Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
• 

  DannyBear

  Tj,

  You said what I wanted to say. Once again.

  Thanks for your comments.

  Danny
• 

  sf

  "Please do not confuse the processes of 'reacting' and 'thinking', they are very different."

  Let me reword it for you sir...

  "According to your statement..." (which is what I thought...no wait...what I SAW you state.

  There, is that better now?

  Do you yahoo? How about a voice chat sometime? Then you can analyze and read me all you want thru my voice expressions. Perhaps it will help. Somehow I KNOW you will decline the invite. Yet how would I?

  sKally, elder klass sux KLASS
• 

  Trotafox

  Teejay: I agree and I see your point. (((hug))) We owe so much to RF that could never possibly be repaid but....

  I'm no longer a Witness and the weird positions of the WTS have zero influence or meaning in my life. I couldn't care less what they do anymore. I think Ray is the same.

  With all due respect, you must understand the feelings of anger and helplessness of "Avengers" and "sf" (myself included). With family and friends still in the chains of the WTS, one gets very desperate as to what to do. To sit back and do nothing is crazy. We'd love to see the Borg tumble in bits and pieces but it's an overwhelming task. Take it apart brick by brick? Where do you start? We need all the help we can get. That's the frustration. It would be easy to walk away and get on with your life. Forget your past. It's done ... capu-u-u-t. But what of the others? If you love them, you can't leave them or forget them! No matter how hard you try, you can't shake off the feeling that you have to do something ... anything. That's the reason I'm on this board. I'm no great scholar but I'm willing to offer my support anywhere, anytime, if it will help.

  What RF chooses to do is, of course, his own business. He's already given a great deal and helped so many. But there are plenty posting on this board that care about what the Borg does and the influence it has on the lives of their loved ones.

  Trot

  "Wicked men obey from fear; good men, from love".... Aristotle. You can love and obey Christ without intervention from an organization.
• 

  avengers

  I'm certain he considers the WT experience a closed chapter in his life

  How about closing it for me? How about the fact that when RF was one of the GB he screwed up many of people's life? How many marriages did he screw up? My loved-ones are still in there. How can this ever be a "closed chapter"? It sounds like you people are pronouncing him dead. I say that if he knows anything he has to come forward. If he doesn't he's a liar just like the WT.. What about the 10000 bucks? He slaved. So did I. 30 years I worked for them while I also paid them. Talk about an indoctrination system.
• 

  sf

  "No matter how hard you try, you can't shake off the feeling that you have to do something ... anything."

  Yes, I concur fully. Not to mention the FACT, for ME, that most of "these men" who WROTE AND PUBLISHED THAT KRAP still have not done EVERYTING they can do. AS I SEE IT AND FEEL IT. Not how anyone else feels or see's it. No one could see this ROT the way I do. And I don't see it the way any other individual see's it. How could I? I do not exist inside themSELVES. Simple.

  "These men(____)" entered into my life at an early stage of developing, in all ways. "They" thrusted their thinking on my mother, thus it was incorporated into our lives INSTANTLY. As kids, we had NO CHOICES in what was about to alter our entire family nucleus; namely the WATCHTOWER DOCTRINES and "DEATH POLICIES". "They" had her good. "Their" thinking became her's which became ours. No more questions were to be asked about why such drastic changes in all parts of our lives were changing so fast. After all, when you're born you're doomed to your parents ways of thinking instantly too. You become what "they" want you to become. You eat what "they' want you to eat and "eat", you believe what "they" believe...until you become an age where you don't have to think or believe "their" way of thinking. Yet, it haunts you.

  I am experiencing that intense feeling of affliction again in re: to certain people here who, once were "those men", in wanting to change my thinking to "theirs". You "men" WILL NOT SUCCEED in doing so...this time! You WILL NOT "counsel" me on any matter. You WILL NOT shove "food" down my throat. You WILL NOT alter MY thinking or hurt me ever again. Farkel's knife was the worst. I won't BE that stupid again to THINK that you "men" won't do what you were all doing years ago...squashing my spirit and freedoms. Think of me whatever YOU WILL. Talk amoungst yourSELVES. Have at it "guys". I will never "come around" to your ways of thinking just to be accepted by you.

  "That's the reason I'm on this board. I'm no great scholar but I'm willing to offer my support anywhere, anytime, if it will help."

  And even if it won't, it will have at least been said.

  Thank you for posting.

  sKally, decking the kingdom halls klass

  wcrestnpeace
• 

  jst2laws

  Hawkaw
  Good to see you got satisfactory answers and especially good that you all came to friendly agreement. I hate to see the really good guys arguing here.

  I would like to add RF is simply a genuine Christian not desiring to hurt anyone and writing his books only to help others. His motivation seems to have been the avoiding harm to others.

  With that I would like to suggest one more reason RF may not seem to be that concerned the UN_NGO issue. While the WT involvement with the UN was supreme hypocrisy, it was not necessarily hurtful to others as the Malawi policy was. In my opinion it was one of the best things the WT has ever done.

  Jst2laws
• 

  jst2laws

  avengers
  “How about closing it for me? How about the fact that when RF was one of the GB he screwed up many of people's life?”

  I can understand that you have been hurt by the GB and WT. But I think it has been explained that for to RF put out anything that cannot be documented would only harm this cause rather than help.

  As to RF’s responsibility for have served on the GB, he did what he could to steer them away from hurtful policies. When he saw it was hopeless he started the process of leaving before they threw him out. Actually it was hopeless to change them from the beginning. But I commend his effort rather than condemn.

  I hope you find your “closing”. It’s vital for you to get beyond this.

  Jst2laws
• 

  Lionel_P_Hartley

  An interesting discussion. It's certainly true that RF, as an ex-member of the GB, shares responsibility for the WTS's past actions. However, most of us, in the past, have also done much to advance the cause of the WTS. Are we to be required to devote our lives to opposing the WTS or should we be allowed to do what we can? Should we be hounded to do more because of our past actions? RF's past actions were not criminal and so, whether we like it or not, it is entirely up to him what he will and won't reveal. Just as it is with us.

  A point to consider is the following; RF knows the mindset of the Society's leaders and the rank-and-file probably better than anyone posting on this board. Isn't it possible that he, therefore, has a good feel about (a) what should and should not be revealed, and (b) how that should be done for maximum impact. We only need consider how little effect Schnell's book had even though it is a compelling indictment of the WTS. This is not said to defend RF - he is not accused of a crime and so he needs no defense - but rather to point out that there are many possibilities. Without knowledge we can only speculate which is not a particularly useful thing to do.

  We should also ask, what good would come from revealing more information, even if RF has significantinformation beyond that which he has already written about? If JWs ignore or won't believe all of the stuff that has already been revealed then why should we expect that even more information would do the trick? The UN matter is a case in point. Despite its being of current interest, even to the press, many JWs discount it. It has had some impact but has generally been ignored by the JW community. They discount much of what RF has written as it is - why would new information about things that happened more than 20 years ago have any effect at all if current scandals don't produce much more than a ripple among the r&f?

  The true impact, really is in two places and is less visible than the r&f quitting in droves: (i) an unknown number of people don't become JWs because of their exposure to the abundance of information already available and (ii) the leadership who are acutely aware of (i) and this wil lead to gradual change. Getting relatives "out" is not simply a question of having even more scandal to put their way. If it were then no JW would remain one since we have more than enough facts as it is.

  It's important to distinguish the understandable emotional desire to get all the dirt on the WTS and the question of what effect knowing even more "dirt" would have. It might not help, and indeed, it might actually be harmful to the cause of getting the truth out about "the Truth." Revealing juicy but undocumented anecdotes would provide a wonderful opportunity to discredit everything that RF has written.

  LPH