Universal Health Care, Pluses and Minuses

by watson 347 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    ...and that (along with the same in France, Germany, Canada, etc) is why it's pointless to chase down John Doe's vague claims that he "wouldn't be here" save for the circumstances of medical research that have happened under the US system; his claims are nonsense.

    No they are not, and you make it a point to ignore my post upthread on page 2. It has been completely ignored here. Our system is by far the most productive in advancing the science, and again I repeat, this does far more good in the long run.

    BTS

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    Richard Smith asks: Is it unpatriotic to criticise the NHS?

    17 Aug, 09 | by BMJ Group

    Fox News or some equally evil, right wing American media outlet will track down my words in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine and broadcast them. I will be obliged to go onto television in Britain and tearfully recant, rather like a hostage asking for release, saying that I’ve always adored the NHS and have no doubts that it is the best health care system in the world.
    I certainly have little doubt that by some measures the US has one of the world’s worst health care systems. It may not be as bad as that of Sierra Leone, but in terms of value it must be almost as bad. To spend 16% of one of the world’s biggest GDPs on health care and have more than 40 million people excluded and infant mortality rates in some parts of the country little better than those of a developing country is very poor value. But if you have adequate health insurance and live near the Mayo Clinic you can get some of the best care in the world—and without waiting.

    Comparing health care systems is as pointless as asking whether Jimi Hendrix made better music than old Bach or whether rural Wiltshire is more beautiful than the Sahara desert. Health systems are very different, shaped by historical, cultural, political, and economic forces. The US couldn’t adopt a system like the NHS even if wanted to, and nor is Britain ever likely to have a system like the US—it would be like asking a cat to transform into a dog. WHO probably did us all a great disservice when it put together apples, oranges, and melons to produce a league table of health systems, although I think the NHS coming 18th when the French system was first stirred ancient (and not so ancient) rivalries and added to the political momentum to up spending on the NHS dramatically. Similarly the somewhat dubious comparisons of the outcomes of cancer patients showing the NHS doing badly helped inspire the national cancer plan even if whatever difference there might be is probably attributable mainly to the greater inequalities in Britain.

    All health systems are deficient. They have to try and balance safety, quality, access, responsiveness, efficiency, and cost and fall short on all of them. There is no perfect health care system and never will be.

    It is possible to learn from other health systems—but at a much more granular level. The populist in me believes that it should be possible for the whole country to debate health care—particularly the relative importance of quality and quantity of life—but what’s striking to those of who’ve spent (misspent?) our lives in the health debate is how uninformed it tends to be on both sides of the Atlantic.

    I’m led to sympathise with politicians, particularly highly intelligent ones like Obama,Brown, and Cameron. They must inform their policies with data and evidence and at least aspire to the rational, but once the debate descends into the bear pit of public political discourse most of that is jettisoned. The Clinton plan was said to have failed because it was a “technical solution to an ethical problem.” The skill of politicians is to find a compelling narrative to sell their policies and to put together enough votes in their legislative bodies to get them through—much more of a problem in the US than the UK because of the “separation of powers,” which may have separated them so far that major societal problems—like health and the environment—become soluble.

    I hope that Obama can exercise his extraordinary political skills to get through a bill that can at least extend coverage even if it cannot reduce costs. He won’t achieve it by ever mentioning the NHS, but could the message be about values rather than technicalities? I may have doubts about some of the mechanics of the NHS, but I have no doubt about its fundamental values—universal coverage, free at the point of delivery, and equal quality of care for all. I don’t care too much how they are achieved and by whom. Surely the Americans could agree on some values—perhaps even the ones we agree on. After all most of the developed world does.

  • beksbks
    beksbks
    Had we socialized medicine 200 years ago, we'd still be seeing quacks and witch doctors, and living to 45. BUT HEY! THERE WOULD BE PARITY!!!!!

    Psssssssssst!! That's just stupid.

  • John Doe
    John Doe
    There is one discernable difference though, and that is that in The US there seems to be a far greater prevalence of private benefactors willing to fund this research.

    If you were in a position of investing money, would you be willing to invest more if the possible returns were rewarded by profit, or merely rewarded by public reputation with a small possibility of getting your money back?

  • llbh
    llbh

    Bts i have rebutted your nonsense enough here, and other in a far more detalied fashion.

    If you wish to quote Lord Acton quote him a little more fully. He said "power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely". Quite pithy don't you think, and apposite?

    Btw welcome back BTS

    David

  • Priest73
    Priest73

    Beks has committed to giving away 75% of her librarian stipen.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    That's a complete strawman sixer. I said I wouldn't be here save for the research of scientists and that our profit driven system is fueling the most advances in medical sciences right now, including a possible cure for my disease. Are you lying, or do you simply have a reading comprehension problem?

    Forgive me for not knowing your point, JD. You seem to be advocating against positive change, but your reasons are very vague and ooga booga.

    My point, on the other hand, is clear: there is a lot of great medical science coming out of France, Germany, Canada, Ireland, Japan, Australia (hell, even Cuba has strong medical research). America can certainly still have great medical science (likely even better, due to emphasis on outcome based medicine) after we insure everyone and apply cost controls in the same (or similar) manner as those other countries do.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    Good for Beks, lets give her a BIG FAT ole raise then!!!!!

  • Priest73
    Priest73
    If you wish to quote Lord Acton quote him a little more fully. He said "power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely". Quite pithy don't you think, and apposite?

    Shit David. He's one of my favorites Lord Acton A-C-T-O-N Acton. Find me guilty!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Incidentally, Rosa Friedman passed away today. She was 97.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

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