NOW how do you view the Future?

by theMadJW 149 Replies latest jw friends

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    SBC: "If, as a rule of logic, all living things are so complex that they MUST have had a Maker, where did that Maker come from?
    Or if you can accept that an incomprehensibly complex spirit did not need a designer, why could you not say the same for the incomprehensibly complex universe?"
    MJW: As a "rule of logic" we HAVE an example of something without Beginning nor End- Space. Not understanding HOW a Being could always exist doesn't rule it out at ALL, whereas hitting the lotto millions of times in a row DOES.

    I'm not just trying to win an argument here, MJW, but your logic is flawed. Please bear with me: You defined the rules for this string of logic in your first statement:

    all living things are complex beyond full comprehension, and screams the fact we have a Maker

    In further reasoning, you have to stay on the same chain of logic and play by the same rules you defined at the beginning. Otherwise, you could say a circle has no beginning or end. True as that may be, it does not apply here. So if you have an argument that follows your rule (living things), please let me hear it. I'm keeping an open mind.

    Before you reply, also understand I am by no means saying that we couldn't possibly be the product of intelligent design. I want to know the answers, yes, but an unbiased search REQUIRES me to scrutinize everything, whether I'd like to believe it or not.

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    SBC, I can't TELL you how encouraging your spirit is to me.

    Take my absurd illustration of Legos (Leggos? Never had them as a kid- had Tinkertoys- shows my age).

    Think that they, given infinite time and chances, could form themselves into little cars or buildings?

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    SBC, I can't TELL you how encouraging your spirit is to me.

    I'm glad I could be encouraging to you, MJW, but please don't be misled. While I can't personally state with certainty the existence or nonexistence of intelligent designer(s), I am convinced that your religion is no more spirit-directed than Quakers, Mulsims, or Scientologists. And besides that, if there is a creator, if he is still in existence, and if he is concerned with our actions, I believe he would take it as insult that so many attribute the bloodthirsty actions of the OT god to him.

    Think that they [Legos] given infinite time and chances, could form themselves into little cars or buildings?

    I presume we're moving to a new chain of logic and letting the other one (who made the Maker) dangle for the time being? That's fine but please be sure to send me a PM or something if you pick it back up when I'm not around. I'll try to see it through.

    To answer your question about the legos, though, I'd say no. I also suspect that's the answer you're looking for, eh, you sly devil? But before you pat yourself on the back let's discuss it.

    Years ago I had the talk outline Appreciating Marvels of God's Creation. One illustration I used (from the Creation book maybe?) was regarding a watch: I asked the audience what would happen if I took a box of watch parts and shook it for 100 billion years... Would I ever get a watch? Noooooooo! (And the audience would nod as they blindly accepted the irrefutable logic that showed evolutionary scientists must be dumb as dirt.) But that was a classic strawman argument. Create a big, weak example, burn it down fast, no further debate required as the argument has been refuted.

    One problem with that logic (and there are many) is that you already have the end product in mind. I'm learning about natural selection right now and it's clear that evolution is a methodical process but has no specific end product in mind, named in advance. But, again, I'm undereducated right now. I've got a lot of reading and studying to do to be properly informed, before I can pass judgment (impartially).

    Since we're being forthright, can you honestly say you've given evolution a chance before rejecting it? I accepted the logic presented to me by my parents (& WT), therefore I could ignore scientists claims without lifting a finger. As it turns out, I had a number of misconceptions about evolution. I was prejudice; ignorant and biased against something I didn't really understand.

    Here's what a scientist might say about the old watch-pieces-in-a-box logic:

    "[That argument] depends upon several basic misunderstandings of science. First, it gets the Second Law [of Thermodynamics] completely wrong. Second, it attempts to apply common sense about macroscopic objects to the world of atoms and molecules, and we've known since the early 20th Century that no such common sense correspondence exists. Indeed, on a molecular level, complex machines akin to molecular watches form from shaking atomic watch parts in a bag all the time. To draw a correspondence such as this is as intellectually bankrupt as saying that the results of performing a double-slit experiment with photons and a diffraction grating should yield the same result with Buicks and fast food drive-thrus."

    Pretty interesting. I've got quite a bit of work cut out for me but it's worth it if I really want to be objective in searching for truth, right?

  • HintOfLime
    HintOfLime
    Control, authority, enforcement- all elements coming from Intelligence.

    1 + 1 = 2. LAW. Not even your god can change that. This law does not come from intelligence. It simply is.

    And if you think a baby is not ART, nor a beautiful sunset, you are FAR more ignorant than most, Lime. (NOT an insult- but a sincere observation!)

    I did not say these things were not beautiful or wonderous. I said they are not art.

    Art has a meaning that is more than just slapping it on everything that invokes an emotional response.

    "Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging symbolic elements in a way that influences and affects the senses, emotions, and/or intellect."

    We evolved to find many things beautiful. Parent's that find their infants beautiful were more likely to take care of that infant, and survive. We also evolved to find some things ugly - certain colors, babies that are deformed and severly unsymmetrical (due to birth defect, etc)... because these things do not help the species.

    These things were not deliberately arranged to deliberately influence our emotions, senses, or intellect - our emotions, senses, and intellect evolved through selection to be manipulated by them.

    For example, is this art?

    There is some beautiful symmatry. Yet it is the product of math. An infinate number of these patterns exist in mathmatics whether any intelligent life exists to discover and observe them or not. With or without god, they are there for any intelligent creature in any universe or time to discover. You might spot a few similarities in this one to certain shells created by sea life.

    Doesn't mean it's not beautiful - but it is not art.

    - Lime

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    VERY interesting, SBC- and YES I was a firm believer in Evolution- until taking a closer look at EVERY term used with impunity!

    Take "Selection" for example. Selection requires a conscious mind: a rock doesn't SELECT the path it takes...

    "System", "organized" , "function", etc ALL are words connected with an intelligent mind.

    Rocks spewing from a volcano don't form systems- as in the "Big Bang".

    They don't organize themselves together to carry out highly specific and CO-ORDINATED functions!

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    I was a firm believer in Evolution- until taking a closer look at EVERY term used with impunity!

    Wait a sec. You were Catholic prior to age 19 and a JW after that? Honestly, MJW, when does that leave time for being a firm believer in evolution, following due diligence to understand it? I'm coming into this conversation totally open AND trying to give you the benefit of a doubt. Please return the favor.

    ake "Selection" for example. Selection requires a conscious mind: a rock doesn't SELECT the path it takes...
    "System", "organized" , "function", etc ALL are words connected with an intelligent mind.

    These statements are false and illogical. Again, if you want this discussion to go anywhere you need to stop building strawmen. As noted earlier, you cannot apply common sense about macroscopic objects to the world of atoms and molecules. Sentience is NOT required for such words to apply.

    White blood cells have no conscious mind yet are constantly on the lookout for signs of disease.

    When a germ does appear, the white blood cells have a variety of ways by which they can attack. Some will produce protective antibodies that will overpower the germ. Others will surround and devour the bacteria.

    All of the words you note can apply to white blood cells and the immune system.

  • theMadJW
    theMadJW

    Catholics believe in evolution- think teens can't THINK?

    Computer viruses are on the lookout for various avenues- and THEY don't have a mind....PRIOGRAMMING!

    Those Leggos MUST have formed cars and planes for you when a kid...

  • Darth plaugeis
    Darth plaugeis

    From what I was taught from the JW's I CAN Throw leggos down and they can make themselves into Cars or Houses....

    it's called Demons!!!

    So it is possible.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Oh, my, it's really quite hopeless...like watching Muhammad Ali on Jeopardy...you want the guy to win, but it's just a train wreck...

    "Selection" requires no planning or forethought. A rock DOES select a path - by following the basic laws of physics for a falling object. It's not a conscious choice, but it is a select path.

    "System", "organized" , "function", etc., are not linked to an intelligent mind - they are observed characteristics. Anything that relates to anything forms a system. Stamping your feet and insisting that form is always consiously designed doesn't make it so. PROVE it by something observable and we'll talk.

    Rocks spewing from a volcano DO form a system - the rock and dust and steam and debris form a complex system called an explosion. The natural process that leads to it, the effects of it, the consequences of it, are all a system. Certainly you don't suggest God is making volcanos go boom?

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Beautiful words covering Blanket Judgement, and AVOIDING the question of this topic...

    It may not be the answer you expected, but it's completely honest and applicable. Perhaps if you were to more artfully construct the question?

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