Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 111 Replies latest jw friends

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  isaacaustin

  Is the reason my wife got reproved for actions 5 years earlier because in looking at her track record it was inactive? Whereas if it was active it would have not been considered necessary?

  Christopher, you must be referring to the letter where the elders inquired about a man guilty of murders prior to his baptism. the org told the elders that there was no need to report if the state did not require. However, this man was also being accused of marijuana use after his baptism, which the wt said needed to be investiagted and acted on, if necessary.
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  sd-7

  Actually, no, I'm referring to a specific WT article. Think it was in the '70s, maybe '79? I don't normally like to use elders' letters as relevant testimony, as those aren't as accessible as the WT itself. I remembered seeing it on the Silent Lambs site and looking it up on my WT Library.

  --Christopher
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  Pistoff

  sd-7, you are still in the black and white thinking of the WT world.

  You have not sinned by expressing your love for someone by having sex, or for just having responsible sex. It is just sex, don't make it dramatically important, it's not.

  You still CAN have a relationship with someone who cares for you. You don't have to stay with the person you are married to. That is the beauty of free will and choice; is it worth the price? Probably.

  But try to shed the black/white only good or only bad thinking of the witness world.

  The trap for you was maybe thinking that because you had sex, you should marry her. That is classic judeo/christian guilt; try to shed that idea.

  After all, there is the stated "laws" about sex, who knows what they really meant, and the reality: the ancients liked sex as much as we do, and were not any better at being celibate. That is what you were trying to be; celibate.

  To waste more of her time and yours would be a shame, but not a SIN. Staying is not a sin, breaking up is not a sin. Either one is a choice you have the power to make.
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  FuzzyPaul

  SD-7,

  I strongly disagree with awildflower and Pistoff directly above. The scriptures, which I trust, explain what God does not want us to do and why. Some of those do not dos have penalties. The penalty for all sin is death. That is in God's jurisdiction. The Watchtower has added to Gods requirements and reinforced an illusion that they are the judges and arbiters. The WT has also created a climate of fear and enforced that you leave your entire life behind so that when you want to leave you have no life, friends, family on good terms to go back to.

  Jesus paid the penalty for all sin for us. The only qualification for salvation is faith. The list of disqualifiers is given by several Bible writers and includes immoral relations.

  But I addressed the specific situation of sleeping with a fiance. "Pay up and get married". 1 John explains what if you commit a sin. Its not an elders meeting!

  Since Jesus paid the penalty for all sins, do as many preachers say to do, "Plead the Blood." You are sorry and Jesus paid my penalty. Saying, A sin is not "sin" is ludicrous if that person pretends to speak for God in any way. I assume that awildflower is not speaking for the loving God of the Bible. The loving God of the Bible explained what sin is, what the penalty is, that he arranged for the penalty to be paid in full for you, to have faith that your penalty was paid, assured you it is, wants us to be thankful, respond by caring for the physical and emotional needs of other which is the only criteria given in the story of The Sheep and the Goats.

  awildflower, you are wrong. If your conscience bothered you and you told yourself it wasn't sin to make yourself feel not guilty you missed the biggest opportunity. You didn't have to! Jesus paid the penalty. "Plead the Blood." And know that God views that as the act of faith he wants. The faith mentioned in John 3:16 et similar.

  Occult religions say there is no sin, intent matters, you are your own god, Jesus is fake, Jesus never existed, We evolved, Buddha is better, ban Christmas and promote Islam, Lucifer is the good guy and similar nonsense.

  Jesus paid the penalty for all sins. Arguing out of sin is unnecessary. There is no penalty when you "Plead the blood".

  The biggest sin of Watchtower doctrine is they declared themselves, their rules and list of works as the way to salvation. They aren't. The Watchtower contradicted Gods GIFT of salvation as much as “there is no sin” notions.

  Blessings,

  Paul
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  Think About It

  Fuzzy Paul.....I've tried not to say anything....but, your Baptist dribble bores me. I grew up in the Baptist faith, have family still strong in the Baptist faith, neighbors were always mostly Baptists, and worked predominately with Baptists my whole life. When becoming a JW, I probably studied the Baptist faith just as much, because that's the preachers & people I dealt with in the territory. If you think your newfound Baptist church is "the truth" you are sadly mistaken my friend.

  You being an X-JW, I have no problem with you coming here. But, to be judgemental of other X-JW's that disagree with your Baptist dribble....maybe, you need to take that crap to people who want to hear it. Most people here come to support each other, not be encouraged to join a larger cult.

  Think About It
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  Mad Sweeney

  Isaacaustin, your wife was DFd because the three-year statute of limitations applies only to elders and MS's. Rank and file can be punished for anything at any time, especially sisters. If you're looking for elitism and mysogeny all rolled up into one, this rule's a win-win.
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  isaacaustin

  thanks Mad Sweeney. She actually was only reproved, but thanks for the explanation.
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  Pistoff

  Face it, the elders can do what they want. They can pursue you, or not. They can take the hard line, or not; if you are in the middle or at the top, you are probably going to get some slack, or a complete pass.

  The hook is in their view that you must show signs of repentance. To most that would mean, you did it, you are sorry and are determined to not do it again.

  To them, it means you MUST say you know it happened because you were missing meetings, not praying, etc, and that you WILL make all the meetings, will stop drinking, will stop looking at nudies on the, fill in the blank.

  The crime is that most of us went into JC's not knowing this little routine; it doesn't matter if you intend to go to meetings, pray more and study more; you need to SAY it and sound sincere to have a chance at avoiding the guillotine ritual. They love to DF people, it makes them feel like they are doing God's work, so don't count on their humanity in this.

  So sd-7, if you want to stay in and fade, which I highly recommend, then figure out what to say to make them think you were not seeing things clearly, and that you see things clearly now, and are looking to have Jehovah's blessing by working hard to recover spiritually.

  Keep us posted.
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  sd-7

  Well, I have to defend FuzzyPaul here, as I think he's said some insightful things. From the Christian perspective, yes, awildflower and pistoff are indeed wrong. Fornication is a sin, but...through Christ, we can be forgiven. How that process takes place, of course, is another matter. Certainly the WT method of punishment and isolation will not likely produce anything other than a person who probably continues to sin seriously and just leaves altogether, or a person who repents and is so deeply scarred emotionally that well...Stockholm syndrome follows.

  From some other perspective, they are probably right. So long as one considers the moral consequences and makes the best possible choice for temselves, considering the potential consequences to themselves and others, no big deal.

  Fact is, until we bite the bullet, buy the farm, kick the bucket, etc., we have no freaking idea who is right and who is wrong. Me? Well...I don't think any of us need to attack each other's point of view here. FuzzyPaul approaches it from a Christian/Baptist perspective, awildflower approaches it from a different perspective, as does Pistoff. I'm not sure any of us can suggest that our ideas are absolutely superior to anyone else's. We're all in error in one way or another. Hopefully, you folks can just agree to disagree.

  I can only speak for my own moral code, which is pretty shaky at the moment anyway. One thing's for sure, I'm not going to abandon my marriage because it's tough or because my wife happens to treat me with disdain at times. I just hope that whatever happens, she finds happiness in her life, and if I'm impeding that, maybe I should get out of the way. If I can help add to her happiness, however, I'd like to do so. I've little left to work with in my life as it is. The superstructure is crumbling. I need to find a way to be strong and get through this, that's all.

  --Christopher
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  awildflower

  awildflower, you are wrong. If your conscience bothered you and you told yourself it wasn't sin to make yourself feel not guilty you missed the biggest opportunity.

  What I said was if HE felt bad then it was bad for HIM. No one should be dictating to another person what's 'wrong' or 'right' in any given circumstance. It's all about motive. If his "fornication" was about "love" then it's not a bad motive. If his "fornication" was about "taking" and "hurting" then it will hurt him and whoever else in the end because that would have brought a whole negative energy to the situation.

  You are just saying the same ol' jw, religious stuff, but in a different package name. I believe that what Jesus taught was that it was within OURSELVES to know what is going to yield positive or negative results. Your message, which I respect is yours, doesn't scare me and that's what "religion", including yours wants to do. That's why our friend here is struggling because he's been "feared" into the idea that he's a "bad little boy". If that's how you get people to supposedly do the right thing, and if that's how you think it SHOULD be, and if that's the God you serve, then you are exactly where you need to be.