by sd-7 111 Replies latest jw friends
The scriptures, which I trust, explain what God does not want us to do and why.
Actually, they state what the ancients thought their deity wanted from them, not the same as you asserting that this is what God wanted. You have decided to take their word for it; fine, but don't expect us too and don't think you have a good trail of proof for that idea.
I think it's already at the point of no return. They already have strong suspicion of apostasy, and there are two witnesses for that (though they don't KNOW there are two). Given my performance at session #1, it's not looking too good. I just want to be free of the cult burdens. I'll even go so far as to accompany the wife to all the meetings, so long as no further expectations are imposed upon me save sitting there and ignoring everybody, which I wanted to do anyway.
I can't hold back from telling them the reality now, even though I know they'll use it against me. But there's nothing they can possibly take from me that hasn't already been taken. The person I was, even the public face who seemed good and honorable, that person is dead. If they get my wife to turn on me and even to separate, so be it. I was prepared to accept losing her from the moment we reunited. I have to make a stand now. I have to face reality and engage them. It got too personal for me to just let it go.
Well, this has all been very interesting, folks. Glad to see this has generated so much support and so many helpful and useful thoughts.
--Christopher
Given my performance at session #1, it's not looking too good. I just want to be free of the cult burdens. I'll even go so far as to accompany the wife to all the meetings, so long as no further expectations are imposed upon me save sitting there and ignoring everybody, which I wanted to do anyway.
I hate that you still seem to be looking at this as some kind of a defeat, Christopher.
Getting out of the borg is a win for you and if your wife is patient with you and is willing to do her duty as the JWs lay it out for her, you'll have time to show her that it's a win for her, too. You WILL be a better husband for it. You ARE already a good person. You DO love her.
You DON'T owe the elders or the congregation ANYthing. You don't even have to show up at the next JC meeting.
If you are going to be resigned to let whatever happens happen, then REALLY do that. Just let it happen. Don't let the flow of the world carry you in its current; STOP, stand still, and just observe it. Let it flow until the torrent is a mere wading trickle and then walk barefoot in the cooling freshness of a new life.
Here's a little something I read earlier today. Maybe it can help you a little.
"Empty the self completely;
Embrace perfect peace.
The world will rise and move;
Watch it return to rest.
All the flourishing things
Will return to their source.
This return is peaceful;
It is the flow of nature,
An eternal decay and renewal.
Accepting this brings enlightenment,
Ignoring this brings misery.
Who accepts nature's flow becomes all-cherishing;
Being all-cherishing he becomes impartial;
Being impartial he becomes magnanimous;
Being magnanimous he becomes natural;
Being natural he becomes one with the Way;
Being one with the Way he becomes immortal:
Though his body will decay, the Way will not."
Your message, which I respect is yours, doesn't scare me and that's what "religion", including yours wants to do. That's why our friend here is struggling because he's been "feared" into the idea that he's a "bad little boy". If that's how you get people to supposedly do the right thing, and if that's how you think it SHOULD be, and if that's the God you serve, then you are exactly where you need to be.
Excellent counterpoint, awildflower. I would agree that if there is a God, for Him to demand our absolute obedience through fear is to contradict the idea that his rule is about love. Fear can only be legitimate if you have the power to make a threat into a reality. And if fear is what worship is about, then God rules through power, not love.
I think for me the moral issues (like my own) can be particularly troubling. I've seen a lot of the bad results of fornication in people's lives--custody battles, struggling single moms, etc. I think if I was going to give advice to my child about this issue, I'd probably recommend that they, at the very least, wait until they could handle that kind of decision (sex) responsibly, and wait until they find someone that genuinely proves trustworthy over a significant period of time. To...figure out what they themselves want first, and then try to find someone who fits around that, not just try to find someone because you don't want to be alone. Putting the Biblical issues aside, that's my take.
Of course, if we consider the fact that odds are, there's more to Biblical events than one can see by simply reading the Bible, we might find ourselves hard-pressed to use its every nuance to guide our lives. Certain ideas, though, are things that I think are good for every culture, every human, everywhere. Fact is, we can't keep all the rules. It's very hard to do, even when resorting to mind control techniques. So I figure there's got to be something more, a road that you and I pave for our own selves, not one imposed on us by any particular holy book.
Just...keep it simple, I figure. Don't do anything to someone that you wouldn't want them to do to you. Bottom line. That, in essence, is what good religion, and good human behavior, is all about.
--Christopher
From the Christian perspective, yes, awildflower and pistoff are indeed wrong.
I agree.
I'm not sure any of us can suggest that our ideas are absolutely superior to anyone else's. We're all in error in one way or another. Hopefully, you folks can just agree to disagree.
I agree.
Getting out of the borg is a win for you
My philosophy in life is....if you can put yourself into win-win situations, you increase your odds of success.
Think About It
I hate that you still seem to be looking at this as some kind of a defeat, Christopher.
Getting out of the borg is a win for you and if your wife is patient with you and is willing to do her duty as the JWs lay it out for her, you'll have time to show her that it's a win for her, too. You WILL be a better husband for it. You ARE already a good person. You DO love her.
You DON'T owe the elders or the congregation ANYthing. You don't even have to show up at the next JC meeting.
Well, I do have to take my wife to the next meeting. It would create serious political problems if I don't go. And she will start to despise me. Fact is, when you're fighting the guy who holds all the cards, you don't win. Maybe for me, personally, yeah, I do win. But my marriage could well start to disintegrate, and it's already being torn at as it is.
Her measurement of a good husband is defined by said husband's willingness to obey cult leadership. That tends to create some problems. She will always see me as comparatively good, not actually good, at best. At worst, she will leave me. I'm just glad that, if that does happen, at least I won't have to put up with the malicious gossip that screwed our relationship in the first place, years ago.
I've no doubt that I could win. It is unlikely the elders have an unassailable position. They are predictable. Clever, not to be underestimated, but still predictable. I need to face them down because I need to extinguish the last of my fears regarding this religion. I can't be reindoctrinated, but I'm still running a program of their creation, somewhere beneath the surface. I need to stop it.
That, and I want to see what they'll do. I want to see just how disgusting this will really become. Great thing was, I was able to throw in a sentence that had some double meaning. "Now I know what evil really is." They took that to mean I was referring to myself, which I was. I was also referring to them.
"Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes, no calamity need be feared."--The Art of War.
--Christopher
I think for me the moral issues (like my own) can be particularly troubling. I've seen a lot of the bad results of fornication in people's lives--custody battles, struggling single moms, etc. I think if I was going to give advice to my child about this issue, I'd probably recommend that they, at the very least, wait until they could handle that kind of decision (sex) responsibly, and wait until they find someone that genuinely proves trustworthy over a significant period of time. To...figure out what they themselves want first, and then try to find someone who fits around that, not just try to find someone because you don't want to be alone. Putting the Biblical issues aside, that's my take.
Absolutley agree! That's what I meant about motive. I wouldn't teach my children that it was ok to go out and fornicate (and I don't like that word btw) with whoever, wherever. I would teach them that any sexual encounter should be one based on love. My problem is that "religion" shouldn't be the one to set that guideline. Only as individuals would we know how WE felt or why WE were doing what we are doing. Yes there are so many problems when this kind of thing happens from the wrong motive. And you know what, if we get caught up in something that turns out to hurt us or someone else then let that be your guide that it was "wrong" and not to do it again!
Look; a religious take on this is what has you feeling you are not good or honorable, all because you had sex and did not go tell the elders about it.
Why would anyone think god cares about our sex life? Is he a pervert? I think elders are, they are so obsessed with the sex lives of their flock.
Think about this cycle; you are SINFUL, you SIN, but it is OK we have Jesus blood to negate it. So the sin is not a big deal then??
Religious folk love to spin you in this cycle; you are a sinner but it is OK we can fix you, listen to us listen to what WE think god wants based on a book we believe in but have never examined critically. Our parents, or friends, or someone we trust told us it was true, and so it is good enough for us.
Do you think God wants you to stay in a marriage, maybe have children, with someone who does not understand you and will only be happy with you if you attend meetings? All because someone said Jesus said you should not be divorced? Was Jesus married? Did he understand how blighting it can be to live with someone you are not suited to?
Easy for him to lecture others when his chosen path was to wander as a single man like a homeless hippie and live off others goodwill.
P
My problem is that "religion" shouldn't be the one to set that guideline.
Indeed. I have seen firsthand just how hard it is to even have a relationship when religion is deeply involved. They try to scare you to death about it before you've even been dating that long!
And you know what, if we get caught up in something that turns out to hurt us or someone else then let that be your guide that it was "wrong" and not to do it again!
This reminds me of a humanist kind of perspective--based on my very limited knowledge of the subject (one perusal of whybelieveinagod.org or something like that). But it's a good point. It's just...when you're so terrified of your natural feelings that you repress them all the time, well, that can build into a frustration that causes you to behave irrationally and irresponsibly. Religion can sometimes cause that problem. And of course, religion will always blame the sinful followers FOR the problem.
It's a fine line to walk here. I didn't intend to get into a moral discussion like this. I can't help wondering if like, one of the elders will show up Saturday and say, "I know who you are...SD-7!" [dun dun duuuuuun!!] I suppose my only response could be, "Well, if you know who I am, then you know we don't need to have this conversation." And then walk out. "When you're done, sweetheart, come to the car."
But the Internet bein' evil and all, that's not likely to happen. If it did, though, at least it'd be over. Wife'd be mighty mad, though. Ah, well. Can't please everyone.
I'm enjoying this. Feels like this is the longest anyone's ever commented on one of my posts. I love it!
--Christopher
