Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite 172 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    2] I could no longer swallow the teaching that outsiders were all deserving of slaughter, just because they were outsiders. I KNEW that there were decent ordinary folk out there, and to claim that our god was wanting to kill them all was just plainly an insult to God..

    Indeed an insult to God, what else can thinking that be?

    I mean, here God was willing to save all of Sodom if only 10 people were found to be good people, but the JW's claim that billions will be destroyed by God even IF they are good people but NOT JW's ??

    22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord . a 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare b the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge c of all the earth do right?”

    26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

    27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?”

    “If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

    29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

    He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

    30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

    He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

    31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

    He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

    32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

    He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    I posted this a while back... but I think it applies here....

    For a number of years, I had concerns. Something just didn’t feel right. I couldn’t put my finger on it, but like any good JW, I tried to ignore the red flags that arose over time. There were many issues, but I’ll only touch on a just a couple because this will get very long if I try to include everything from a span of many years.

    1: My dad died in 1978 of kidney failure. During his lengthy illness the subject of kidney transplant arose. My parents sought the advice of the society, and found that, according to the society, organ transplantation was “against Jehovah’s law”, and that it amounted to cannibalism. My dad did not have a transplant as a direct result of this reasoning. He remained on dialysis (which was not enough in his case) until his death. Two years later, the society changed their policy, and it became a matter of conscience as to whether or not to have a transplant.

    I cannot tell you the emotion I felt when reading the “questions from the readers” that was the vehicle for the policy change. Now, most JWs will say that …”well, he was faithful and he’ll be back in the new system.” The question is “who was he faithful to?” It wasn’t Jehovah that demanded that he abstain from a transplant. His death did not result from being faithful to Jehovah…and faithfulness to the instruction of an organization is not the basis by which one gains salvation. Further, my dad was 68 years old when he died, a relatively young man. No one can replace the years he lost… I have 2 children who would have loved to have had a grandfather. He would have enriched their lives immensely. Now, who claims responsibility for this? Was it Jehovah who made the mistake? No….Jehovah does not make mistakes. The society went “beyond what is written” with terrible consequences, consequences that they do not take responsibility for…or even apologize for.

    At that point, I was still very much “in” the organization, and I tried very hard to avoid thinking about it.

    2: When my son was about 7 years old, one of his friends from the congregation, an elder’s son came for a visit. They were outside playing when a little boy from the neighborhood wanted to join them. The elder’s son started screaming at the little boy telling him that Jehovah hated him….that he wasn’t one of Jehovah’s witnesses and that he was going to die at Armageddon. I heard the commotion and went outside to see the little boy in tears and my son trying to comfort him. I called the elder and asked him to come and get his son. Where does that kind of hatred come from? Any religion that teaches a child to hate is not only unchristian, it’s dangerous.

    Still in…trying to rationalize this as an isolated incident…

    3: When my daughter was 13, she was very observant, wise beyond her years. She saw things going on in the congregation that she knew were wrong. She asked me on several occasions “Where is the love….isn’t that supposed to be the identifying mark of the true religion? Well, where is it?” I had no answer for her because she was right. It wasn’t there. It wasn’t just one congregation either. We were in several in Florida. I have attended congregations from MA to CA to Fl. The most important identifying mark… and it was virtually absent….

    Still in, still trying to make excuses….

    Many many more issues arose over time, and I continued to push them to the back of my mind. It got awfully crowded back there….and finally after my divorce in 1990 I decided to assess my life, and examine all that I believed. It was a turning point for me.

    As a JW I had told countless people to examine their religion. I had never taken my own advice. I decided to do so. If it really was the truth, I would apply myself “whole-souled” If it wasn’t, it was time I knew. It was Fall, 1990. I was 38 years old.

    I have an extensive library of JW publications that goes back to the turn of the 20 th century. I started at the beginning, and read continuously. It took nearly 2 years, and it broke my heart.

    The society claims that they were chosen to represent Jehovah in 1918-1919 (depending on which publication you reference.) They claim that they were chosen based on the fact that they, and they alone were teaching Bible truths. If they were truly chosen on that basis, why is it that the teachings of today have little if any resemblance to what they taught then? I know what they taught then, because I have read it from the original publications. Not the same teachings at all….not by any stretch of the imagination.

    The first really major books published by the society was the series “Studies in the Scriptures” The final volume was published in 1917, and was the most recent publication at the supposed time of their being chosen. I think every JW should have that book as required reading. It is filled with the craziest stuff I have ever read. And to add insult to injury, on the cover of this book (and all of the Studies in the Scriptures) is the symbol of the Egyptian sun God, Ra. Now I ask you, in examining the religions of the world, do you really think that Jehovah would choose a group that has the symbol of another god on the cover of their main teaching tool? And just what is it doing there to begin with?

    It got worse the more I read. Changing teachings…false prophecies… 1874…1914, 1918, 1925…on and on. The original calculation to get to the year 1914 was taken from the measurements of the “Great Pyramid of Giza” from something called the “Pyramid inch”….first written about by Charles Piazzi Smythe…a mystic. The “Ancient worthies” men like Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were supposed to be resurrected in 1925, and Judge Rutherford even had a mansion built for them, and deeded to them. It’s in San Diego, and it was sold in the early 40s after that prophecy failed. Did you know that Adam was the first Pharaoh…and he’s buried in the sphinx? Yup and Jehovah resides in the Pleadies…. On and on. No jw today believes any of this stuff, no thinking person would…but it’s the substance by which they were supposedly chosen by God.

    Ah, but you will say…we have new light!!! Look at Proverbs 4:18!! Please do, but this time read the whole chapter. This scripture does not teach “new light”. It is the story of a father teaching his son the best way to live his life… To sum it up: If you live a righteous life, you live an enlightened life. If you live a wicked life, you live in darkness. It has nothing to do with justifying changing teachings. Jehovah doesn’t change. Truth doesn’t change.

    This doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. It is truly a mess. There is literally nothing to trust!

    Ah, but they are imperfect men, you say. They’ve made mistakes that’s all. Ok, then why not judge all religions by the same standard.? They are also made up of imperfect men. The society condemns all other religions for doing things that they themselves are guilty of. Why a double standard?

    I t would have been easier to ignore the evidence and stay. ..to bury my head and try to ignore the facts. It was all I ever knew…ever believed…and it crumbled before my eyes. My consciennce won’t allow me to remain part of that organization. Live up to their standards? No, it’s the other way around. They do not live up to my standards. And they definitely do not live up to Jehovah’s standards. Faithful and Discreet Slave? There is nothing faithful nor discreet about their record. They are not who they claim to be. Their history confirms this without a doubt.

    Coffee

  • oldlightnewshite
    oldlightnewshite

    Hey Coffee, Sorry about your dad. I've often thought about that change in policy on transplants and whether many people had been affected by it. That's gotta make you choke when it was just 2 years after. That's one thing I vowed to change once I finally left. I am now the proud owner of an organ donor card. The 'No Blood' card went in the bin years ago. Somebody should maybe start a thread on here about encouraging everyone to consider signing up for one. In the UK when you sign up, it goes straight on the national health register so they can get to know straight away if they need to take something.

    Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far. Seems like most people's 'Spidey Sense' gets going with the prophecy BullSh*t and lack of love.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Coffee,

    No words can express what you have written so I will simply say, Thank you.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa said:

    Hi Designs

    Major changes? recent years speak only of refinements on biblical prophecy understanding aka "generation". So you will have to be more explicit?

    My reply: Changing teachings from one direction to the other after your poriginal words fail is not refinement, it is called shooting in the dark.

    Reniaa said:

    Hi olin

    1/ yes Jesus did predict false prophets and using bible Chronology was not what makes then false prophets but...

    My reply: Thank you. I can think of no more a direct fulfillment of this than the WT.

    Reniaa said her famous argument:

    Matthew 24:24
    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

    You can't just take the words "false prophet" and fill in your own opinion of what makes them a false prophet! Jesus said they would apparently perform "signs and miracles" that deceive. Witnesses do not fill this requirement. Jesus's words simply don't back your claim.

    My reply: Jesus said false prophets would appear and deceive and perform signs and wonders. You misread that to be a definition that one must perform signs and wonders to be a false prophet. You are wrong. Deut 18 defines a false prophet, while Jesus gave other flavors of things they could do.

    Reniaa said:

    2/ Jesus gave the shepherds a certain autonomy of shepherding which allows them to apply Bible principle to situations that haven't happened yet.

    Matthew 16:19
    I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

    The apostles openly used this to make decisions on gentiles and circumcism. This does not end until Jesus comes in his power. but all shepherds are held accountable for their shepherding.

    Matthew 24:44-46 (New International Version)

    44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

    45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

    Hebrews 13:17
    Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

    3/ Three is simply a weird charge "slandering God" by saying he will bring destruction on unrighteous mankind? You are familiar with the flood story when God destroyed all people, families besides Noah and his family? Jesus admits himself that it will be a noah's flood type of event.

    Matthew 24:37-39 (New International Version)

    37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    Only have time to comment on the Hebrews verse you always used to try to use when you posted under Reniaa and got corrected many times. The first several verses make clear obedience is to the extent that the word of God is taught.

    Sorry Reniaa, you lose on all points again.

  • Scarred for life
    Scarred for life

    coffee_black: Great job in telling your story. My father also died in 1978. He had been advised to get a heart valve transplant. Well, as you know, organ transplants, blood transfusions with the surgery. He never agreeed to have the surgery and he died of cardiac arrest. I hate the JWs and all the effects they have had on my life.

  • designs
    designs

    Debator,

    This is where you need to do your research, I'll give you some hints-

    What was the major change regarding Jehovah

    What was the major change regarding the New Covenant

    What was the major change regarding Dispensationalism and Chronology

    What was the major change regarding Jesus

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    I find it entertaining when WTS apologists try to defend their leaders/clergy from charges of false prophecy. Just like Bill Clinton tried to raise doubts about "what the definition of the word 'is' is," the WTS clergy and its apologists concoct their own meaning of the word "prophet." Of course, this is a transparent attempt to explain away their glorious history of claiming to be God's sole channel for communication to mankind--and being wrong every time!

    Only in WT-world can you have a group of religious leaders that (1) claims to be God's channel of communication, (2) on multiple occasions predicts that God will bring "The End" by a particular period of time, and (3) is wrong every time...but still allegedly don't qualify as false prophets. Talk about delusional!

    My hat is off to these WTS leaders. They have over 7 million people who are willing to fall for this cover story. I guess P.T. Barnum was right--there's a sucker born every minute!

    Notice two verses in Mathew about false prophets:

    Matt. 24:11: "and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people"

    Matt. 24:24: "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible."

    If you believe the Bible, then you must believe that there will be many false prophets in The Last Days. WTS apologists contend that verse 24 requires the performing of miracles to qualify as a false prophet. However, they are unable to identify these "many false prophets" that are supposed to be performing miracles that "deceive even the elect" during these Last Days.

    But the WTS meets this interpretation of verse 24 anyway because it contends that its "rich increase" in publisher numbers (now over 7 million) is the result of activity by God, Jesus, and the angels--and could not be accomplished by mere human activity alone. In other words, it's a "great sign and miracle."

    So either way the WTS meets the definition of a false prophet. To argue otherwise requires twisting scripture, the English language, and logic. But religious fundamentalists (such as the WTS and its followers) are well-trained in all three.

  • debator
    debator

    Hi designs

    Time and dates please I notice you are throwing in some prophecy stuff still in there. I do not debate refinements have been made it is part of being in God's religion and biblically predicted and ongoing but recent MAJOR changes? I am not going to do your work for you. You say these are recent major changes please put them on the table.

    Hi Isaac

    Deut 18 in it's entirity backs witnesses up since it is talking about false prophets claiming to be inspired (speaking words from God himself) it is the blueprint for inspired words that become part of the Bible. You are deconstructing the bible in trying to say Deut 18 is about lesser claims.

    Witnesses are false prophets only in the eyes of people that totally ignore what the bible actually says concerning false prophets. I always find this argument one of the most dishonest from ex-Jws. Some arguments like the UN one are just desperation but this one is frankly dishonest.

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    Witnesses are false prophets only in the eyes of people that totally ignore what the bible actually says concerning false prophets. I always find this argument one of the most dishonest from ex-Jws. Some arguments like the UN one are just desperation but this one is frankly dishonest.

    And yet the wt itself claims that they are prophets. I guess they are dishonest by your standards.... that's ok...they are dishonest by my standards too.

    prophet

    ....and not a single thing they have prophecied...in over 100 years of thier existence has come to pass.....not one.

    Deuteronomy 18:

    17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

    21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

    Coffee

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