Debator-
I did not use the word recent you did. As a JW you should know your religion's history so do your homework.
Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute
by oldlightnewshite 172 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
debator
Hi Designs
I do know my Religion's history, Christianity is nearly 2000 years old and as Jews even longer before that. But going back to what the early Christians, Pre-christian jews and what the Bible actually teaches concerning Jehovah and his son meant getting rid of 1700 year old enforced man-made doctrines brought in to appease greek philosophy mad, Roman God, worshiping people.
When it highlighted changes how far back are you willing to go? The majority of People who call themselves Christians follow a trinitarian God and Doctrinal framework only fully realised as a teaching in the third century. It's first incarnation was "Father, Son and wisdom" which got changed to "holy spirit". Hellfire and immortal soul are also later changes from the original bible teachings.
Witnesses have gone back to original bible teachings that got obscured by man-made doctrines which where enforced on pain of death.
It took time and lots of biblical and spirit refinement for early bible-students that became Jehovah's witnesses to truly throw-off accumulated centuries of false teachings and get back to pure bible truths (as taught by Jesus his Apostles and early Christians) but they succeeded.
-
coffee_black
We are not debating the requirements to be a prophet but the requirements to be false prophets and the Bible simply says they have to claim inspiration, signs, miracles, anti-christs etc The witnesses have claimed none of these.
Again the Bible is specific for the requirements of both and trying to muddy the waters by saying that just claiming to be a prophet can make you a false prophet is ridiculous.
To be a false prophet you have to show specific Bible written requirements for this and the witnesses have shown none of them.
Yes, and I quoted the requirements in my post. Read Deuteronomy again.... (it's back one page..under the wt page I posted) Nothing about signs miracles etc... just that they come/speak in God's name. Wt does claim to be directed by God. They are, after all, Witness of who? Whose name do they come in? They claim to be Jehovah's orgainzation.. the only one on the planet. Just what do you think inspired means? If God didn't inspire the billions of pages of changing teachings they have published in well over a century.... who did? Imperfect men? If so, why aren't they called Imperfect men's witnesses? At least that would be accurate... and honest!
Bottom line... jws claim to be a prophet. Do you disagree with that claim?
They claim to be the only channel of communication of God. Do you disagree with that? Who are they communicating with?
They claim that only through associating with them can you have a relationship with God Do you agree with that claim?
Not one thing that they have prophecied has happened...ever... not one. What kind of prophet does that make them....a true one or a false one?
Coffee
-
Chalam
I'd like to post the summary again :)
I t would have been easier to ignore the evidence and stay. ..to bury my head and try to ignore the facts. It was all I ever knew…ever believed…and it crumbled before my eyes. My consciennce won’t allow me to remain part of that organization. Live up to their standards? No, it’s the other way around. They do not live up to my standards. And they definitely do not live up to Jehovah’s standards. Faithful and Discreet Slave? There is nothing faithful nor discreet about their record. They are not who they claim to be. Their history confirms this without a doubt.
Blessings in Christ,
Stephen
-
debator
Hi Coffee-black
I am not a fan of loaded language.
I refer you to my reply to wobble above that Deut 18 does not support your claim that witnesses are false prophets.
Witnesses Have never claimed inspiration and have openly denied it. Trying to use wording/terms other than this to try and construct some kind of claim for inspiration which they have denied already is dishonest on your part.
While the Bible shows that inspiration is given to prophets, it does not claim that all prophets are inspired aka Miriam and Aaron did not have inspired utterances. So claiming to be a prophet does not equate to claiming to be inspired so it is an irrelevent point.
1/ saying you are a prophet is not a claim for inspiration!
2/ God's channel of communication is not a claim for inspiration! you are simply saying it is in your own opinion.
3/ Saying you are God's only people is a claim all Christianity makes and that you have to become one to be closer to God. By your reasoning on this, every Christian is a false prophet. Including Paul who told Agrippa to become a Christian.
4/ They have never claimed to make inspired utterances or prophecies ever! Using already written Bible prophecy and chronology aka armageddon, "times, time and half" is not the same as saying you are inspired.
You are imputing to Witness a position that we do not claim for ourselves and then refuting that position, instead of our actual position. This is really nothing but a dishonest debating trick.
-
coffee_black
Ok.. Where in Deut. does it say "false inspired prophet"? It merely says anyone speaking in the name of Jehovah... JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES come in Whose name? What did they name themselves?
I think it is you who are playing with words....and are ignoring the obvious. The wt wants all of the authority of claiming to be a prophet, but none of the responsibility when nothing they have said happens...
You are the one using debating tricks. Note: You have not answered a single question I asked... but then, you never do... do you? Is that just a debating trick... or don't you have answers....
No loaded language here.... the wt is the expert on that.
Coffee
-
debator
Hi coffee-black
For your perusal a reprint of deut 18 for you to look over.Note the prophet has to claim to be able to speak the very "words of Jehovah"
Deuteronomy 18:18-22
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by Jehovah ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
This is the acknowledged blueprint for knowing if a particular prophets words are inspired of God the actual "words spoken by Jehovah" This is how we know that books where to be part of the Bible it is also a prophecy concerning Jesus who would be able to tell us his fathers words directly.
Witnesses have never claimed the ability to speak words directly from Jehovah, to be inspired! therefore they do not qualify as false prophets by the very words of this chapter.
-
debator
Throughout the Bible you get many instances of Prophets speaking many propecies under Inspiration but other times clearly words from their own opinion like when Nathan tells David he will build the temple and got rebuked by Jehovah on this.
Saying being a prophet = inspired. Means you are saying everything they utter is inspired as God's prophets. Yet this is patently not the case biblically inspiration comes only at certain times for specific reasons.
And like I said earlier clearly many prophets never got inspired utterances aka Miriam and Aaron.
-
Chalam
debator Things only have to be in the Bible once! There isn't a "how many times" option for believing various biblical doctrines. Take "born Again" this actually only appears in the Bible once, among others.
As Jesus would say.
Matthew 22:29 (New International Version)
29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Here's a few.
John 3:3 (English Standard Version)
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5 (English Standard Version)
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 (English Standard Version)
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (English Standard Version)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you,and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Acts 2:38 (English Standard Version)
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5 (English Standard Version)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 5:17 (English Standard Version)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Romans 6:4 (English Standard Version)
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Blessings,
Stephen
-
debator
Hi chalam
Nice Sciptures some from the same chapter but they do not change that "Born Again" only appears once. I am not denying it is a true Biblical point but certain groups woefully misused it's true meaning. Making it something men can claim/do for themselves when it is only something God can give to a certain few.