Well, as long as none of you are speculating beyond what is written...
did jesus really succeed where adam failed?
by booby 102 Replies latest watchtower bible
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believingxjw
Never!
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AGuest
That leads to saying God was unjust when in the story he required of Eve what she did not have the maturity to understand but Adam did understand.
The requirement to obey Him... for her own good? I am not sure I understand what you don't understand, dear BXJW (again, peace to you!). A two-year-old understands "Don't touch it."
Eve believed that to touch the fruit meant death, this was not true.
Now, how do you discern that?
Her eyes only became open when she ate the fruit not when she touched it.
Her eyes became opened, yes. Where do you get that this was the moment that death entered? Death entered... through Adam. So, HER touching AND eating didn't trigger the result. HIS did. Contrary to what many men like to teach... and believe...
She believed something that was added to God's word to Adam and it was wrong.
And who do you believe "added" this "something"?
This I believe is one of the truths found in the story.
And I have learned, dear one, that just like things have been added... things have been taken out. Things like, say, perhaps "one day God was walking with EVE in the breezy part of the day, and talking over things with HER." Now, why wouldn't something like this be IN the account? Very simple: it really HAS been a man's world. And this omission is just one more way that men have supported their "need" show Eve... and thus, women... to be "inferior" to men. The Most Holy One of Israel could walk and talk with ADAM... a man... but NOT with EVE... a woman. Oh, no, not that.
Yet, contrary to the liking of his disciples, my Lord spoke with a woman. Openly. Without reservation. Indeed, told HER... FIRST... and NOT her husband OR the man she was living with... about the "water" that HE gives. Indeed, he appeared to women... FIRST. While all but one of the men were hiding behind a locked door.
Even Paul wrote:
"There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians--you are one in Christ [Jesus]."
What most who follow Paul teachings regarding such relationships forget is (1) they were pursuant to ROMAN law, and Jewish TRADITION, but NOT the Law Covenant; and (2) such male/female superior/inferior, subjection/dominating relationship did NOT exist in the garden. It came about AFTER they sinned. It was after that Eve was told that her carving would be for her husband and he would dominate her. It was NOT that way from the beginning, however, BEFORE they sinned. Before... they each walked with Most Holy One of Israel... together... and individually.
Since Christ will bring it all BACK to what it once was... what it was BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned... there is absolutely NO basis to believe he didn't speak with Eve, too. Even more... when those who belong to Christ ARE finally joined in union with him, we become his BRIDE... whether we are male and female. Fortunately, the women will make this adjustment MUCH quicker... than those who are male.
Indeed, that is another part of the hold up: it isn't until men understand that they are the WIFE... in their relationship with Christ... that HE is the husband and head... that they will stop "kicking against the goads"... and stop making the whole thing so hard for themselves. Then... they, too, will learn... subjection.
Adam and Eve weren't two people, dear one: they were one. Both contained the qualities of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. "Man"... who was made in God's image... was male... AND female. Eve... was IN Adam... before the Most Holy One of Israel brought her out. So that when they joined, they again became one. But prior to even Adam... was male... AND female... for some time.
May you have ears to hear... and get the sense of these truths, dear BXJW.
I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA, who isn't speculating, truly. Read the account...
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moshe
Most Jews have a different take on what happened in Eden, it is their book after all.
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therevealer
Tec said "Someone remind me where it says that Adam and Eve were perfect, please." any one else.
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bobld
No! Like I said before, why do we die if Jesus set everything to square one.
B
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OnTheWayOut
Eve believed that to touch the fruit meant death, this was not true. Her eyes only became open when she ate the fruit not when she touched it. She believed something that was added to God's word to Adam and it was wrong.
Neither a conversation between Eve and God or between Adam and Eve covering the rules about the fruit are recorded. Therefore, you who object to speculation, are speculating what took place in such a conversation. It is possible that Adam passed that information on to Eve or that God told Eve more and it wasn't in the Bible (or the real truth that it is all a fairytale). But make sure you cast the first stone.
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tec
Therefore, you who object to speculation,
The only speculation that was being discounted, was speculation that seemed to be in opposition to what WAS written in the account. Speculating that Adam ate out of love for his wife is in opposition to the fact that he also offered her up as soon as God asked him why he had disobeyed.
Tammy
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OnTheWayOut
seemed to be in opposition
That's another speculation. I am not against such speculation. But BXJW issomeone in a glass house throwing stones.
And what's so great about such arguments is that you Christians think you win either way. You get everyone arguing about what God meant and said, what Adam and Eve meant and said. The next thing you know, people forget it's all a mythology built upon other mythologies. (Yeah, if AGuest can go to her made-up story of her lord, then I can remind everyone what I know is the truth.)
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tec
I'm not against speculation either, OTWO. "Seemed" would be demonstrative of speculation, but hopefully its based on something. People can then choose to take or leave it for themselves.
For the record, I don't think everyone arguing about God is a win for us at all. I think the effort put into arguing over details that don't save or condemn us either way might be better spent walking down to the nearest park bench and buying a homeless man a meal. However, I do enjoy discussing God and Christ, and there are also people who WANT to discuss Him or just listen, or even learn or be inspired to learn... so I don't think this is a waste of effort at all. (and I don't think that anyone who thinks that this is mythology forgets that during a discussion; besides, believing that God exists isn't the same in believing in what He stands for)
That was a mouthful :)
Tammy