Greetings, dear BXJW... and the greatest of love and peace to you! I truly do NOT mean to dispute or contend. But there are things you've stated that are not accurate and I feel compelled to clarify, if you will allow me. Thank you!
There are Christians who feel that Adam and Eve were inexperienced and more like children than adults.
They were, dear one. They had to be. Nothing like them... or where they lived... had ever existed before. No "track record" had been established... no examples for them to learn by. THEY were supposed to set the example... after they LEARNED it. In comparison to the life span that COULD have had... and things they could have known... been privy to... they were virtual toddlers.
I don't see where in the text that thought is supported.
Well, for one, you are limiting yourself if you truly believe that all that occurred is actually contained in the text. Surely, that can't be. Be that as it may, in a previous post, the question was asked about going ahead of what was written in the Genesis account. I was directed to call attention to the fact that there are things regarding those occurrences that are written in other books. So, merely looking to the text may be insufficient. In this case, I would exhort you to look to Christ, and specifically the FACT that HE had to learn (and if he had, certainly Adham had to!):
"JaHVeH himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a [master worker], and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."
That term, "master worker"... or similar ("architect", "workman", etc.)... is incorrect. The TRUE rendering of the Hebrew word used here, "'amown", actually means a master LEARNER... a "fosterling"... a son who is taught by a father. It has been erroneously transliterated because of the belief that after the Father created him, my Lord created everything else. That is absolutely UNTRUE; however, that it is is beyond the scope of this thread and so I won't go into it here (I would be more than glad to go into it in another thread, if you like. In the meantime, the following lexicon excerpt verses might help):
Also... "I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me ..."
And... "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, the Son does likewise."
And... "Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im·man´u·el. Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely."
Surely, if the Most Holy One of Israel required training and learning for His Son, Christ, He required it for His Son... Adham.
God treated Adam as an adult. He gave him adult tasks and requirements
I am not sure how you can say this, on what you base your statement. I mean, sure they may be considered "adult" tasks NOW (and depends on where you live in the world), but, well... let's take a look:
"And JaHVeH God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E´den to cultivate it and to take care of it."
Now, I don't know about YOU... but I know that children can... and do... /cultivate and farm land. All over the world. Even in the heartland of the U.S.A. And they land THEY farm... is often "cursed." Adham, however, didn't have that problem. How about another...
"Now JaHVeH God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name. So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for man there was found no helper as a complement of him."
I realize that this may seem like a daunting task... but that is most probably due to (1) the LATIN names that were LATER given to animals, and (2) the number of species that exist NOW. Adham, however, didn't speak Latin... and so most of the animals had one- or two-sylabelled names... which pretty much described either their appearance, their movement, what they did, or what they ate. And there weren't the gazillion of species there are now, but only the various "kinds"... which number less than 1,000 I believe. So, sounds simple enough to me. Gave Adham something to do for, what, a couple weeks? Months? Certainly not an eternity. Okay, what else...
"Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth..."
So, okay... have sex. Sorry, but I can't see what's so "adult" about that, truly.
"... and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."
And subduing the earth wouldn't have been a difficult task back then - remember, the earth wasn't cursed... yet. Finally...
"Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food."
So, go gather your own food. Pick some fruit, pull some vegetables... grab some leaves... Sorry, but I just don't see all of that "adult" stuff your comment suggests, dear BXJW.
and dealt with Adam's failures as an adult would be dealt with not a child.
Again, I disgree. First, Adham had no failures. Yet. And none were expected, really. Otherwise, there would have been other warnings, yes? However, the Most Holy One of Israel DID deal with Adham's IMMATURITY... by WARNING him... as any father would... with ANY child... of a danger that could cost him his LIFE. Same as telling a 2-year old not to run with scissors. Or a five-year-old not to play in the street. Or a 10-year-old not to go with strangers. Or a 16-year-old not to mess with drugs. Or a 19-year-old not to drive at 90 mph. Or a 23-year-old not to rob a bank. Why? Because... YOU CAN DIE.
To believe that Adam did not understand death is to make God a monster, for telling Adam death would be a consequence of disobedience yet knowing that Adam did not understand what death was is monstrous.
First, Adham totally understood death. He KNEW what he was bargaining for when he sold out. But your statement is inaccurate. A two-year-old doesn't understand death. Yet, we will absolutely tell a 2-year-old that he/she will die "if." But I'll go you one better: some 25-year-olds don't understand death. Not really. My son didn't... until he was 24-25. He'd heard of it... knew the seriousness of it. And thought he knew the finality of it. But it wasn't until one of his closest friends died... IN HIS ARMS... that he began to even truly comprehend it. Even then, his knowledge... like yours and mine... was limited. He came to know OF death... what happens when another dies: we, the living, suffer loss. We DON'T, however... KNOW death... because we've never EXPERIENCED it.
The issue, however, was never whether Adham understood death. It was KNOWING death. KNOWING... "bad." He KNEW good (life). The only way he would be like God, however, was to know BOTH: good (life)... AND bad (death). KNOW them... and yet live. Christ... now knows both life (good)... AND death (bad). Yet, he lives.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were not able to understand exactly what was expected of them
To the contrary, Eve's words show that they ABSOLUTELY understood EXACTLY what was expected of them:
"Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'YOU must not eat from it, no,YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.'"
So, it was absolutely clear. Just as telling your 10-year-old not to touch your motorcycle because he could kill himself. True, he doesn't know what that "killing" truly is, but he KNOWS it's serious enough to YOU... for YOU to have said such a thing. Problem arises... when he DOESN'T BELIEVE YOU... and so tries to FIND OUT... FOR HIMSELF.
, and the consequences of failing to do as God had instructed them.
You say this as if God was saying He would punish them, something He NEVER said... or meant! He NEVER said, "If you eat... I WILL KILL YOU." That is NOT what occurred, not at ALL. He said, "If you eat... you will die." Absolutely, totally, different thing. Absolutely.
I believe that scripture was written, as written, for a purpose. If something is not stated there is a purposeful reason for it (in other words, it was not an accidental omission or something overlooked) and what is included also has a purpose as well. I understand that those who do not believe in the Bible as anything more than fairytales etc would not agree with my premise and that's fine.
I do not believe it to be fairytales at all; yet, I would disagree with you in some instances. I do not in this case, however, as to what was written. I DO disagree as to how you... and many others interpret what is written. Above, you say that for the Most Holy One of Israel to believe that Adham and Eve understood was "monstrous." No, dear one... what is MONSTROUS... is the FALSE teaching that the Most Holy One of Israel said to His children, "If you eat from it... I will KILL you." Which is what you... and others teach. He never SAID that... or meant that. It was not a restriction - it was a WARNING. And a very LOVING warning, at that!
We are all free to believe as our hearts and minds impel us to.
We are. And so, some of us lean upon our own understanding. But the heart IS treacherous, is it not? And so, others of us have given our hearts and minds over... to Christ. Fully relinquished them to him. And the result is that knowing and understanding these things SO much easier, truly, because we do NOT lean upon our own understanding... which is limited, if not flawed altogether. Rather, we let him, the Holy Spirit, lead us. Into ALL truth... including the truth as to what went on in the garden at that time.
An excellent point was brought up that God gave the instructions on the Tree of Knowledge only to Adam, Eve was not present having not been as yet created. This command was given directly to Adam alone, the thou was Adam. Eve was not present to hear the command.
This is only partially true. In the FIRST instance, only Adham was present, as Eve had not come into existence yet.
This is not reading something into the text, it is directly evident.
Okay...
After Adam and Eve eat the fruit (btw the NWT makes it seem that Adam was not with Eve when the serpent was speaking but other translations do not agree) God says to Adam (note the pronoun): "And Jehovah God called unto the man, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
Yes. But he called to Adham for a REASON.
Here God is again addressing the man only even though, unlike when the command was first given, Eve was at this time present when God spoke to Adam.
Yes, she's there, and again, Adham is being addressed first, for a reason (Eve is addressed, later).
(It should be noted that when Eve repeated the command not only was an addition made, do not touch, but also the singular pronoun was changed to a plural one, she, though not present when it was given, was included under the command)
Ah, you were doing SO well. Why is it that you believe the Most Holy One of Israel only spoke to Adham ONCE... and to Eve not at all? Seriously... why do you assume that EVERYTHING THAT WAS SAID AND TOOK PLACE WAS RECORDED? How can that BE?? Surely, Adham and Eve spoke TO EACH OTHER. Yet, where is that recorded??? Your premise, however, suggests that if it is NOT recorded, then it didn't happen. But I PROMISE you... Adham and Eve spoke to each other. They spoke to God. He spoke to them. My Lord spoke to them. They spoke to him. The Adversary also spoke to them... and they spoke to him. Together, as to each case... AND individually.
Thus, Eve repeated the command that was given when she WAS present. And THIS time, "do not touch it" was included. Was Adham present? Yes. As you state (but erroneously)... the account indicates plurality. NOT because it was changed... and "do not touch" was added. But because this was an entirely DIFFERENT time... and BOTH were present. There is absolutely NOTHING that suggests the directive that Eve is referring to is one and the same as the one spoken solely to Adham. Nothing whatsoever. Indeed, THAT is speculation... and presumptuousness... to assume that the Most Holy One of Israel would NOT have spoken to Eve, as well. She was NOT in subjection to Adham, yet, but equal.
And so she was included,
Yes. But Adham was called out for a reason: Eve was deceived. HE... was NOT. So, while, yes, she was in trouble... he was in BIG trouble.
the result of disobeying God was an increase of pain in childbirth and the fact that her fallen husband would rule over her whether by her permission or not, it seems, depending on the translation.
Yes.
But unlike Adam, Eve's punishment for disobeying did not mention death. Only Adam was given a direct sentence of death.
This is inaccurate. First, NEITHER were "sentenced" to death. Again, this is an ERROR... and a "monstrous" one at that! Death... was the CONSEQUENCE of their eating... not the PUNISHMENT for it. The PUNISHMENT... was being cast out of the garden... where the Tree of LIFE was... so that they could not get to IT and eat... and live FOREVER.
Only Adam had direct communication with God in the garden and only Adam heard the voice of God directly giving him the command.
This is a FALSE...(and also WTBTS)... TEACHING. And it is entirely UNTRUE. It is based on the tradition of "headship"... which was not a sentence... but prophetic... and did not occur until AFTER they had sinned. Prior to, Eve enjoyed the exact same relationship with the Most Holy One of Israel as did Adham... HER "other half."
Was that the reason Eve was not given a direct punishment of death? we must all decide for ourselves.
Neither were given such a punishment and to say that they were is to call the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... unrighteous. And that... is a lie.
It was to Adam alone that God said, "...in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
Yep! And THAT was part of the "punishment" that resulted from being put OUT. Death was only the consequence.
It is interesting that while Adam was, according to Genesis 2, made from the dust of the ground Eve was not. She was made from Adam's side therefore when God pronounced this sentence on Adam, God was going back to the beginning of Adam's creation and the direct command he gave to the man alone, Adam.
Yikes. No. No sentence. Adham came from the dust. Now, he was going to die because of his action. So, he simply returns to where he came from. And Eve... to where SHE came from: Adham... and thus, ALSO the dust. Just like the rest of us. We, too, are dust.
From dust he came and to dust he will return.
Him... Eve... and the bodies of the rest of us who die before my Lord's return.
Eve did indeed die but God did not say to her that in dying she will die nor did he even mention death in connection with Eve.
First, you are in error. Eve herself said what the Most Holy One of Israel said to her:
"YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.'"
Second, in dying... she... died. She did not continue to live "forever." Just as Adham died, she died. She was told she would... and she did.
She was deceived, Adam was not.
Yes.
The deceived of mankind do not deserve eternal death, only those who willfully and knowingly disobey God's commands.
Again, we disagree. I realize that the writer of the letter to Hebrews touched on willful sin; however, my Lord only stated ONE "sin" for which there is NO forgiveness: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Did Adham commit such blasphemy? I have not heard, so it is not for me to say. Could be he did in his conversation with the Adversary... even with Eve... just before he ate. Or in his heart, even. Only God and Christ know. What I DO know is that there is going to be resurrection... of the righteous... AND the unrighteous. To life... or judgment. Because of their error, both Adham and Eve must stand before the judgment seat. Question is... whether their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Since I didn't hear... nor have come to know of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit on Adham's part, I will just have to wait and see what his ultimate fate is. So will you.
As to whether the deceived "deserve" eternal death, I can only offer you what my Lord himself was recorded to have said:
"Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?"
And what are God's commands today? I'll let Jesus' words speak for themselves:
What you quoted are not God's commands, dear one. Those are merely the glorious results for those who, like Rahab, gain life as a result of their good deeds to Christ, as shown to even the least one of his brothers.
God's commands, however, were stated by Christ... and while the two greatest are "Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength"... and "Love your neighbor as yourself," there are several others. For instance:
"You must have love among yourselves."
"You must love your enemies and pray for them."
"STOP judging."
"You, when YOU pray, go into your private room..."
"Do not be anxious over anything..."
"Come to ME and drink"
"Take MY yoke..."
And things like these. And just as important:
"UNLESS you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood"... as well as
"KEEP doing this... in remembrance of me."
And there are others. However, one doesn't need to look to what's written in the Bible for such commandments... if indeed one has the Law written... on one's heart.
I hope this clarifies... and helps... and, as always, I bid you peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
