did jesus really succeed where adam failed?

by booby 102 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Well thank you I guess.

    You are quite welcome, dear booby (and, again, peace to you!), but the thanks is truly due to JAHESHUA, who is the Holy One of Israel and Son and Christ of the Most the Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. What I share is NOT mine... it is only what I received from him. Truly.

    I struggle to know if you write out of your heart so to speak and that is why much of it is beyond my comprehension or if you speak from ego.

    Please do not struggle, dear one. In truth, it is what is written on my heart. It is only beyond your comprehension... right now... because you are trying to understand what *I* am sharing. It would make SO much more sense to you, however, if you listened to the Holy One of Israel himself on these issues.

    This comment is in way an insult or even a challenge. Just an expression from MY little brain.

    I SO totally understand what you mean... and intend. Dear booby, I ask you... to humble yourself... just a little bit... not a great deal... so as to listen. Go to our Lord and ask him if what I have shared here is truth. Listen to HIM... and then put faith in what you hear. It truly IS as simple as that!

    I bid you peace... and ears to hear!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    booby

    Can you say that jesus was thusly faced with a similar dilemma as adam.

    I wouldn't say Jesus was faced with a "dilemma" at all. As many have already pointed out, part of the problem is the Watchtower puts to much weight into Christ being only a man and the exact one to one payment. The comparison in Romans 5 was never intended to be understood that way. The simple idea being conveyed is that just as Adam's sin condemns all (or many) men to death, Jesus righteousness makes/redeems many (or all that believe) alive. In other words if you don't think it fair that you are represented by Adam, then you can't expect to be redeemed by Christ.

  • believingxjw
    believingxjw

    SA,

    You misunderstood a little, as you can see from the quote below. Just trying to clarify.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were not able to understand exactly what was expected of them

    To the contrary, Eve's words show that they ABSOLUTELY understood EXACTLY what was expected of them:

    As far as having a written word, that many Chrisitans believe is at least God directed, all we have is what is before us, the Bible, for most of us that must suffice. I appreciated reading your opinions, thank you.

  • Scully
    Scully

    believingxjw:

    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were not able to understand exactly what was expected of them

    To the contrary, Eve's words show that they ABSOLUTELY understood EXACTLY what was expected of them:

    The problem, though, is that while they knew the "rule" and knew they were expected to "obey" and knew the consequence "if you do, I'll have to kill you", there is no logic behind that rule - which you'd kind of expect from someone claiming to be the God of Order.

    I've said before that any loving parent will acknowledge their responsibility to teach their children right from wrong, to cultivate in them a sense of morality, ethics and justice. Yet, Jehovah didn't do anything of the sort. He withheld the Knowledge of Good and Evil from Adam and Eve. He told them that they were not to partake, and threatened them with death if they did. He expected OBEDIENCE based on his say-so and based on fear-mongering threats to the lives of Adam and Eve and their offspring.

    Any parent acting that way now would be investigated by Child Protective Services for psychological abuse.

    Furthermore, by withholding the Knowledge of Good and Evil from his human creations, it's clear that Adam and Eve were NOT created in God's image, otherwise they would have had the capacity to discern Good from Evil in the first place.

  • tec
    tec

    "if you do, I'll have to kill you", there is no logic behind that rule.

    But that isn't the rule or its consequence. It says, "if you do, you will die." He didn't threaten them with death, he warned them of a consequence to this action.

    The tree was there. Good and Bad were present in the world. Knowledge of good and bad (not knowing of, but actually knowing, as in experiencing) would bring death, as a consequence.

    Parents warn their children of things that will kill or harm them all the time. It is to their benefit, to protect them. It isn't the same as saying that the parent will kill them. So here Adam and Eve had been told what they should not do, the warning - nor was it arbitrary, since they even the reason why they should not do it.

    Tammy

  • Scully
    Scully

    tec:

    But that isn't the rule or its consequence. It says, "if you do, you will die." He didn't threaten them with death, he warned them of a consequence to this action.

    I have to disagree. Who created the tree and put it in the Garden of Eden? God. Who was it that decided that the tree (Knowledge of Good and Evil) was forbidden? God. Who decided the consequence for eating of it, or even touching it, would be death? God.

    When I tell my kids "Don't touch the bottles with the skull on it, because you can die or get hurt very badly from it" I'm warning them. I didn't make the chemicals, I don't put it in a place where my kids will be tempted to access them, and I don't make it attractive to them. But God did all that, and then told them essentially, "You can't have it, but I've arranged things so that if you eat from this beautiful tree, you will die."

    The tree was there. Good and Bad were present in the world. Knowledge of good and bad (not knowing of, but actually knowing, as in experiencing) would bring death, as a consequence.

    Really? Good and Bad were present in the world?? Why would God create Badness? If he is the creator of everything, then you're saying that he created Badness, before the serpent ever encountered Eve.

  • believingxjw
    believingxjw

    Scully, (edited to add this post was written before I read yours just above this one)

    I would totally agree with you if I thought that Adam and Eve were childlike individuals from whom the ability to distinguish right from wrong, good from bad, had been withheld or were lacking due to limited experience in life as it is with children. But, I believe Adam and Eve were fully able to distinguish right from wrong before they took the fruit, imo, they were adults. If Adam had been childlike then absolutely God would be wrong to require that if Adam had not listened he would die, and that is what God said.

    Letting the story speak for itself, we have a man created by God and who receives instructions directly from God. "And Jehovah God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it," ASV. This is an adult here with a charge given to adults not children.

    Adam is given the prohibition of eating from that one tree, God spoke to Adam as a man, effectively saying, here's the way it is Adam, I've given you everything except this. Adam is charged with naming all the animals. This requires not only having a language but also the ability to improvise on that language, to create names. Did the writer of this story give any indication that Adam was a mental or emotional child? No, I don't believe so. In fact, after God brings his wife to him Adam is mature enough to say; "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Adam gives this new creation a name as well, a name associated with how the woman had come to be. This is not a child speaking but a mature man. He also knew how she came to be, from his "side" which includes both "flesh and bone" he was not kept in childlike innocence of anything.

    So why the name Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad? I agree with those who believe that the Tree symbolized the experience of having done good and bad. In other words up to that point Adam and Eve had not committed a wrong act, they had only experienced doing good, that is, doing as God had commanded, listening to their Father. This to many may sound like children but in fact aren't we all under some law or another? And if we break a law we are subject to the penalties imposed by the government who enforces the law even at times including death or a life sentence. It was not the fruit so much as the act of rebellion against God, the only source of life. At the moment they rebelled the connection with God was severed.

    When Eve ate the fruit her eyes were not "opened" immediately. It was only after Adam ate the fruit that the eyes of both of them became opened. It was only when the one who was given the direct command, the one who was not deceived but knowingly took the fruit, ate, then it was that the eyes of both man and wife were opened. And then they realized their nakedness. (It is true that very young children do not take note of their nakedness but so do adults in nudist camps they do not run and hide from being seen naked either.) There was no reason for shame before but now suddenly their nakedness became something that had to be covered especially that part of their bodies that was the most different between them. Suddenly, unlike the animals Adam had named who go about living their lives unconcerned about covering, the man and his wife were quick to rectify what they had earlier not even noticed. What is the writer attempting to point out? That, imo, a drastic change in how the man and woman viewed themselves had occurred. Did they feel an immediate guilt, an immediate separation from God, an immediate need to seek to cover first of their physical differences, and even from God? Each of us must decide, if we want to that is.

    There is so much to find in this Genesis account. So much more than we were taught in the Watchtower. Here is another interesting point; while Adam was told he would return to the dust and the serpent was told his head would be bruised (or crushed) both punishments appearing to end in death there was no death sentence applied to the woman who was the only one deceived. Could this be why the account says of Adam when naming his wife, Eve, "And the man called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living," maybe. The idea possibly being that those deceived by anyone into rebelling against God will not have the same end as those who knowingly and willingly rebel.

    Eve, in fact, later becomes the first human recorded to use God's name in the Bible, the first to give credit to YHWH, "And the man knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man with the help of Jehovah." ASV When she said concerning Seth, "God hath appointed me another seed instead Abel; for Cain slew him," it is apparent, imo at least, that Eve is referring back to the pronouncement made in Genesis 3 concerning the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. Abel in the account is approved of God, he dies. Seth is born and Eve believes he is another seed appointed by God to take Abel's place. Some say that Eve was just hoping or speaking what was in her heart but that it meant nothing. I can't agree because the writer's intent must be taken into consideration. The writer of Genesis did not disagree with Eve's words in fact he confirmed them by having Seth become the progenitor of those who would eventually worship YHWH.

    Just some thoughts, not meant to be anything more than my opinions on what I believe is an inspired story but not necessarily a literal one.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    When I tell my kids "Don't touch the bottles with the skull on it, because you can die or get hurt very badly from it" I'm warning them. I didn't make the chemicals, I don't put it in a place where my kids will be tempted to access them, and I don't make it attractive to them.

    Interesting analogy, dear Scully (peace to you!)... but not accurate. How about: when you tell you kids not to touch the stove because they can get hurt... or die (if a fire is set)... you are warning them. You bought the stove, had it installed in the kitchen... where the kids sit and do their homework... even turn it on and cook/boil while they watch. And it's a shiny new Wolf (oh, baby!!)... and so VERY attractive. To you AND them.

    But God did all that, and then told them essentially, "You can't have it, but I've arranged things so that if you eat from this beautiful tree, you will die."

    And you did all that and then told them, essentially, "Yeah, I know you love hot chocolate, but I've arranged things so that if you touch that stove, you could pull a hot pot down and scald yourself SO much... you will die."

    Come on, folks - if you're a parent, it really isn't a stretch to understand why you would make/build/plant/install/own something that you have in full view but warn your kids to keep away from.

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • tec
    tec

    Really? Good and Bad were present in the world?? Why would God create Badness? If he is the creator of everything, then you're saying that he created Badness, before the serpent ever encountered Eve.

    Well, Satan did deceive Eve, on the sly and without a care for the consequences that would come to her or Adam, so that wasn't exactly a 'good' act. So yes, good and bad were in existence before Adam and Eve ate and came to experience the bad.

    Now I don't know how the nature of something good can turn bad, I can only speculate, but I do know that it happens. It doesn't mean that God created the badness. But because he gave us the ability to choose our own path (free will)... we could certainly choose not to follow or obey him. I mean even in the account itself, BEFORE Adam or Eve ate from the tree, they chose something that went against what HE had told them to do. That choice brought them death.

    Tammy

  • designs
    designs

    In Jewish thought the Devil is a Literary device, a protagonist, and not the way christians have been taught to think about Satan.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit