by flipper 200 Replies latest members private
Let us know how it goes..Once you open the door to JWs they may not easily give up!
Hope this allows for a decent conversation with your daughter. If you get to see her, try to avoid any JW topics, and just give her a hug and tell her that she means a lot to you! I understand it's not you that is limiting the contact, but her mentality that she needs to be loyal to what the Watchtower tells her. Good luck.
Look forward to Lake Tahoe. Hopefully radiation from Japan does not reach us by then.
Hey Mr Flipper,
I am hoping for the best and that You will be reunited with Your deluded daughter. I am green with envy that She has a loving Dad, but chooses to manipulate and abuse His natural affections. It makes Me Ill. I can tell from your writings that You are patient, kind, and loving and I hope that in the meantime You allow someone to be a benafactor of those gifts. Our world is teeming with youngsters who need time, attention, and care from loving adults. I hate to see it go to waste.
LW
@flipper:
In my previous post, I neglected to proofread it, so in addition to a few typos, there were some incomplete sentences that needed to be completed, so this post is a redo a proofread redo.
First of all - you obviously didn't read my responses to TOTALLY ADD in that my daughter IS NOT aware of ANY of the things I told this elder- except for the concern over child abuse policies.
In the future, please take a moment to think the very next time you decide to say anything as foolish as what you say here to anyone else. You're never going to be able to do any kind of logical thinking until you learn first how to think. You are exchanging a post with a thinker, and, clearly, you did not do any thinking, @flipper. It should have been obvious to you that I posted my message after @TotallyADD had posted his response to your post and before you posted your message to @TotallyADD's post. I don't pretend to be able to read your mind nor anybody's else's mind, but I'm familiar with your perspective in believing that you managed to keep your apostate views concealed from this elder. Pretend that I'm smarter than you are for a moment and receive these next five (5) words: You did not do that.
I don't care if you flip burgers for a living , assist attorneys , or strip in an all male nightclub for women as a male stripper. You're still just a JW apologist trying to be an antagonist. What you do for a living has absolutely NO bearing on how the WT society or JW elders operate. Period. Your opinion registers on the level of Zero to me.
I pointed out what I do for a living just to let you get some idea as to how naked your motives are when seeking to keep your apostasy on the "down-low" to someone like me that makes a living interrogating and probing the things that people say. I thought I should be the one to let you know how delusional you came off to me in thinking that your views weren't manifest in what things you said to this elder. Do you want to think your apostasy is not on the "down-low"? Ok.
I don't have a problem with you or anyone at all that should choose to be a male stripper, whose job it is to strip and dance in an all-male nightclub for men or women. I don't have a problem with folks flipping burgers for a living. Don't project your prejudices off on me because I'm not judgmental at all. I have talked to female strippers and to folks that flip burgers and to S.W.A.T. police officers and to rooters, and it is not my place to judge any of these folks for the work they do for a living. Generally, people must decide whether or not their choice of work when comparing what they learn from the Bible with it to be compatible with true Christianity. (Romans 12:2) For example, I know someone that is one of Jehovah's Witnesses in North Carolina that carries a pistol concealed on his person.
Now this is his choice, and while his choice makes it impossible for him to serve as a pioneer in his local congregation, he wants to feel secure in the knowledge that he will be able to protect his own life and the lives of his family, and he does feel secure in the knowledge that he will be able to protect his own life and the lives of his family from someone that might want to do them harm. While I am able to put my full trust in Jehovah's advice, at present, he is not able to do so, and when he should also be able to do so, he will, but until that day comes, he's going to feel secure in the knowledge that he is packing heat.
Is a male stripper or someone that flips burgers for a living somehow disqualified from their having a Bible study? Not at all! Do you have scruples against male strippers or against someone that flips burgers studying the Bible so that they might learn how they might gain everlasting life under God's kingdom? If so, then this would be a personal bias which would be a bar from your helping folks that want to know what the good news we preach is all about, according to the Bible -- those that currently work as male stripers and those that work at McDonald's or at Burger King -- that that want to know what this good news about the kingdom of God that is being preached today consists. You are like that slave to whom Jesus entrusted with a talent, who just buried his talent instead of, at least, putting it in the bank so that it might draw a little interest.
You came to learn things about God's kingdom that others were desirous of hearing, but never heard, and yet it was so easy for you to bury your talent instead of putting it somewhere where it might earn interest. You're upset with a few elders, with the way a few imperfect men treated you, and you're so disgruntled and bitter about these men so that it doesn't even occur you, assuming that you are right about these men abusing their power as congregation elders in your case, that both they and you may end up perishing, they for their bad treatment of God's flock, and you because you decided to keep the good news that you were entrusted to preach all to yourself, so that, as it turns out, no one is saved by any of yours own efforts to preach this good news of the kingdom.
In your post, you called me a JW apologist trying to be an antagonist, but I'm not here defending any policy that Jehovah's Witnesses might have in dealing with apostasy. I'm not here defending bad policies employed by bad elders. If I am an "apologist," I'm someone that defends Bible truth, and I don't care if you don't agree with Bible truth. You have the right to believe whatever it is you want to believe, to live your life exactly as you may choose to live it. So do I. I may not believe in the same things that you believe, or believe in the same way that you believe, but I'm not here to antagonize you or anyone. You weren't baptized in the name of any of these bad elders, were you, so why would you be tripping all over yourself as you have been doing here because of them? (1 Corinthians 1:13)
"Those elders stumbled me," won't excuse the contempt that you will have shown for your king if you persist in following yourself as god, @flipper. Yes, I said "your king," because when you were baptized, you became one of his subjects, like it or not. Do you not recall Jesus saying, "I should lose nothing out of all that [Jehovah] has given me"? (John 6:39) You dedicated you life to do God's will and Jehovah thereupon entrusted your salvation to His son, the king. You belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God. (1 Corinthians 3:23) Do you see how this works? This is something that God guarantees. (2 Corinthians 1:21)
Of course, it you should be living your life in accord with the spirit of the world, living with an "Anything Goes" attitude, then you cannot possibly belong to Christ, since no one having God's spirit in them can live in harmony with the fleshly outlook on life that is the world's spirit. (Romans 8:9) But I'm sure you believe that you have Christ's spirit, don't you, @flipper?
You just don't like the fact that these particular elders were, as the kids say, all up in your personal business, all up in your personal life, giving you advice that you did not need and did not want. The nerve of these men doing this to you! They didn't know that they were going to become bloodguilty as far as their stumbling you, did they? They didn't know that by what they were saying and doing to you, they were, in effect, writing their own death warrants, did they?
In your case, it was unavoidable they you should have been stumbled on account of these elders, for they seemed to forget that by their stumbling you, woe would certainly come to them. (Luke 17:1) "Woe to the world due to the stumbling blocks!" Jesus said, but you do know that you are going to have to forgive these men their trespasses if you want God to forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 6:14)
I'm sure you remember Jesus' parable where a man was in debt to his father, Jehovah, "the king" in his parable, for $10 million (10,000 talents) and the king had forgiving this man his debt. However, when the king learned that this "redeemed" man had found someone in the same financial straits as he himself had been that had owed him only $17 (100 denarii), and that he had thrown this man in prison because of his unwillingness to "be patient" and have pity on the man, the king decided that the redeemed man didn't deserved to be pitied, and the king went on to reinstate the debt that he had formerly forgiven, so that both men ended up in jail? This is the gist of Jesus' parable, right? (Matthew 18:7, 23-35)
As did Judas Iscariot, these elders have betrayed their charge with respect to shepherding God's flock, and you know as well as I do that it would have been better for them had none of these men been born, right, @flipper? (Acts 20:28; Matthew 26:24) Why not forgive them men, @flipper? Perhaps you feel that if you were an elder, then things would be different and you might well be regularly attending meetings at the Kingdom Hall as you had been doing until some seven years ago, but why would you envy these men? (Proverbs 24:19) It seems to be that you're holding the winning hand. Do you under the game of poker? that a pair wins over a high card? They have an ace, but you have a pair of deuces. Nice! Or, as Charlie Sheen might say, "Winning!"
My own opposition to what the Bible identifies as wickedness is where I IMO stand as an individual, for I'm someone that thinks pursuing God's righteousness makes sense, but this doesn't mean that you have to be opposed to wickedness. You don't have to be and I have no hostility whatsoever toward you for being the kind of person that you choose to be with respect to God's righteousness. There are a lot of people that I've met over the years that have never entered a Kingdom Hall because their belly is their god, for "they have their minds upon things on the earth" (Philippians 3:19), and I have no hostility toward them either. I'm still going to try to reach these folks until God says "Enough."
I was merely telling you here that had you said any of those things that you told this elder to your daughter that you may have let the proverbial cat out of the bag with respect to your down-low apostate views. I'm a smart guy and so I'm telling you that your approach wasn't a very smart one, and I'm pretty sure that you didn't fool this elder if he came to your home looking to find confirmation of whether you held apostate viewpoints. This is what I was saying to you. One of your views has to do with blood transfusions, and I find that this objection of yours is about as ignorant as that held by many active Jehovah's Witnesses that are in fade. You wrote:
Then I stated that I had problems with the blood transfusion policies. I told him that several years ago the organization said it was O.K. to take " blood fractions " and justified it by saying it came from water- but I stated the fractions actually STILL come from blood . So what about the thousands who have lost their lives before who didn't take fractions ? He said, " Well - blood transfusions or fractions are a conscience matter now. " Incredible.
There are some active Jehovah's Witnesses that tend to repeat some of what they read in our publications without their ever really having done any study whatsoever on the subject of blood, so, as in your case, they really don't know what this subject is about, nor do they appreciate what the Bible's view is as to why they should not be using blood. Actually, it is only when something tragic intrudes upon their own life or the life of a family member, something that potentially involves the use of blood, that they then seek the advice of elders, and even then they are asking the elders to explain . It turns out that while they thought they did, they really didn't know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe even though they consider themselves to be Jehovah's Witnesses.
Ask any of them, what's wrong with their using blood, and all they know is what they read in the Watchtower, or in one of our publications, where God commanded us to "abstain ... from blood." Some of them might even be able to show you where these words are found in their copy of the Bible in Acts. Go to one circuit after another, in this state or that one, and you will find that some have even committed certain verses in Genesis and Leviticus to memory. They believe, as do you, that Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden to receive a blood transfusion for any reason. This is what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, this is what Jehovah's Witnesses teach. You were formerly one of Jehovah's Witnesses so you know that this is what we teach. Sometimes you want to tell them to put their Watchtowers and their little notes that they make away, to have them answer, using only the Bible, why it is that Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept blood.
Now while it's true that Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept blood transfusions because we believe that God's word commands us to "abstain ... from blood" (Acts 15:20), not one of Jehovah's Witnesses are forced to obey God in this regard. The non-Witnesses you meet in your life don't know and don't care what God's word says about blood, many of them are accomplished men and woman, doctors, accountants, teachers, scientists and lawyers. The elders in the local congregation will urge fellow Witnesses and non-Witnesses alike to seek medical treatment from those hospitals that pursue blood management protocols and offer bloodless surgery as an alternative to blood transfusion, knowing that the medical decisions that one makes are personal matters, so that it is often the case that elders will not even know that anyone is struggling with a conscience matter or know what a patient's decision turned out to be in this regard unless the patient or someone associated the patient's family should disclose this information to them.
On what basis, @flipper, can the good news of the kingdom appeal to doctors, accountants, teachers, scientists, lawyers that are not students of God's word so that they might come to appreciate the reason that Jehovah's Witnesses confidently rely on its advice? On the basis that the command that relates to the use of blood at Acts 15:29 is followed by the inspired words of the kingdom, "Good health to you!" Everyone that becomes a subject of God's kingdom gets to opportunity to study their own copy of the Bible to learn what is essentially the constitution of the kingdom of God. In this way, if someone doesn't know something, maybe someone else with their own copy of the Bible can share what them whatever needs to be learned.
Congregation elders have no right to such personal information as to what inpatient or outpatient medical procedures you might need to have any more so than they have the right to ask for your Social Security Number that is used here in the US to benefit retirees and their spouses and is private. Nor do elders have the right to pry or to insert themselves into the personal matters of anyone, and this would include matters of conscience, whether medical-related or not.
There are many Jehovah's Witnesses that became such having germ phobias of one kind or another, and there is hardly a time when I don't hear someone say something ignorant, for example, how it their custom to always ask to be seated in a different section of the restaurant in order to avoid a particular waiter or waitress or server that seems to them to be gay, because they do not want to risk ingesting food that might have become contaminated as the result of it having been handled by someone that engages in behavior that could lead to their contracting AIDS. I'm paraphrasing here, but this is what many have said. Many articles on the subject of AIDS have appeared in our publications, but they don't really read them, but focus only on the parts of the articles that seem to agree with their ignorant points of view.
Being transfused with someone's else blood means losing the chance for eternal life. This is not true. The risks associated with the use of blood in connection with the transfusion of blood and blood products far outweigh the benefits that one hopes to obtain. This is true. But health benefits also accrue to those that are putting their faith in God and obeying His command to "keep abstaining ... from blood" as well as the rest of His commands. (Acts 15:29) But what about those inspired words of the kingdom, "Good health to you"? How does the good news that Jehovah's Witnesses affect the health of people from all walks of life when it comes to the way in which blood is being used today?
An article published a study back in 1993, entitled "Effect of Stored blood Transfusion on Oxygen Delivery in Patients with Sepses," by Paul Merik, M.D., Critical Care Specialist, suggested that transfusions weren't doing the job that they were supposed to do, that is, carrying oxygen to the cells in the body. Donated blood degrades after 42 days, and as it ages, red blood cells become misshapen, which makes in harder for them to maneuver through tiny capillaries, so that the older the blood is, the more degraded it becomes as it approaches 42 days, the greater the number of complications there are and the less effective the blood is in delivering oxygen to the patient.
You were making such a big deal in your post, @flipper, as do many folks here on JWN, about blood fractions, but this is just food for thought, since Jehovah's Witnesses do not give medical advice to anyone and what they should decide to do in this regard is a matter of conscious as it has always been. You want to believe that the elders go into hospitals and actually dictate to patients that are Jehovah's Witnesses what kind of treatment that cannot have, but it is not anyone's business what decisions they have made, nor are such patients obliged to explain medical decisions that pertain to blood fractions -- or to anything else for that matter -- to anyone, their only duty is to their own doctor and to Jehovah their God! A few facts for you:
Back in 2008, a Cleveland Clinical Study in a Cleveland, Ohio, hospital reviewed some 6,000 heart surgical patient records, and found that those patients receiving blood that was more than two weeks' old had a significantly higher risk of complications, including post-operative infections, respiratory problems, kidney failure, and death, with things like colorectal cancer recurrence, organ failure, and a significantly long-term impact on the recipients' immune system with respect to things like anemia, allogenic blood transfusion and immunomodulation found in critically ill patients. A blood transfusion lowers the host's immune response and its ability to fight infections, so that it predisposes a sick patient for the inset of infections that their immune system could have fought off were it not for the transfused blood introduced into the patient's body.
When asked whether there are any risks associated with a patient's receiving a blood transfusion, Aryeh Shander, M.D., Chief of Anesthesiology and Critical Care, Englewood Hospital and Medical Center in Englewood, New Jersey, responded: "Absolutely. If you can't demonstrate benefit, all you are offering the patient is risk."
Richard Benjamin, M.D., Chief Medical Officer, American Red Cross, and Harvey Klein, M.D.,
Department of Transfusion Medicine, National Institutes of Health's Clinical Center, believe that there is no substitute for a soldier that might otherwise die on the battlefield or from a gunshot wound sustained by someone that gets shot while walking in an alley than giving such persons a blood transfusion, and they would not hesitate to recommend the use of blood in an operating room when the patient begins to bleed like crazy on the operating room table.
However, Dr. Shander points out that since 1995, with blood conserving care and patient blood management, that bloodless surgery patients treated in his hospital without blood transfusions did better when compared to patients that have gotten blood transfusions, for when comparing the cardiac population in his hospital with the populations in other institutions, the risk of adjusted mortality is lowest in the state of New Jersey with probably the lowest transfusion rates in the world.
When asked what the circumstances are where you really absolutely have to transfuse someone, when there just no question about this, Dr. Shander responded: "There are patients that we've had here with hemoglobin levels of less than two grams per deciliter, which is considered to be incompatible with survival, who have gone home without a blood transfusion." Even if one of Jehovah's Witnesses or one of their children should die due to waiving off blood transfusions in connection with medical treatment, we already knew that there was no opportunity afforded to them to live forever in this current system of things where not-too-many people are living to see even their 100th birthday, so we have faith that most of us will require a resurrection anyway if we are going to live forever.
Furthermore, giving up the eternal prospect of living forever to gain another 10, 20 or 30 years of life in this system of things seems to me to be akin to trying to save $50,000 at the rate of $1/day for 100 years when its mathematically impossible to save up this much on your own. This is just to illustrate the futility of our disobeying God to do things that will only give us a few additional years of life in this system of things that is going to pass away. (1 John 2:17) There's really nothing that can compare with someone that is willing to forfeit their soul in order to gain 10, 20 or 30 more years of life in the world. (Matthew 16:26)
In 2010, some 100 hospitals in the US that belong to what is known as the "Society for the Advancement of Blood Management" offer blood management programs, whereas there were only 25 in the early 1990s. Irwin Gross, M.D., Eastern Maine Medical Center, indicated that in 2007, transfusions were cut over the next three years at Dr. Gross' Bangor, Maine, hospital facility by sixty percent (60%), which by 2010 had saved his hospital almost $1.5 million per year. As you can see, the good news that Jehovah's Witnesses have shared with their physicians has not only led to their patients having better outcomes, but to hospitals having more money available to help more of those that require the medical treatment that they offer.
Really, the question that patients ought to be asking when they know that an invasive surgical procedure is indicated is whether there is anything that they can do to reduce their need for transfused blood. As a result of the increased awareness brought to the attention of the medical community regarding the request made by Jehovah's Witnesses many years ago of their need to have hospitals perform bloodless surgical procedures, in February 2010, the US Centers for Disease Control launched its National Hemovigilance Program, the first national adverse event blood transfusion monitoring program.
All US hospitals are presently uploading data to the CDC so that analysis and comparisons of the results that relate to blood transfusions involving the age of the blood used in transfusions given to patients by hospitals around the country can be made, including as it pertains to transfusions of blood stored more than two weeks. Regardless of what the final results turn out to be, Jehovah's Witnesses are determined to obey God and to "abstain ... from blood," as He commands all Christians to do.
Furthermore, anyone that was formerly one of Jehovah's Witnesses, as you were once, @flipper, even though you are presently putting on this pretense of being something you aren't, like your being someone that is on the down-low about their duplicity in claiming to be someone that you really aren't, someone that would dare to criticize a parent for their refusal to allow a doctor to subject any of their children to the risks associated with blood transfusions, including compromising their immune system once transfused blood has invaded their body -- there being only attendant risks and no benefits -- is not someone that has come to know the kind of faith that Abraham demonstrated in the resurrection, for he was asked by God to kill his only son, which Abraham would not have been willing to do were it not for his faith in God, the very same faith that Jehovah's Witnesses have in Jesus, that he will keep his promise to raise the dead during Judgment Day. (Hebrews 11:17-19; John 5:28, 29) May I remind you that nowhere in the Bible have you ever read that Jesus was given the keys to Gehenna!
Anyway, @flipper, what difference does it make to you what other people do? Why are you so concerned about what other people are doing? Whether you strongly believe that Jehovah's Witnesses should accept blood transfusions for themselves and for their children, what business is it of yours what Jehovah's Witnesses decide in such matters? It isn't the business of the elders to decide or to make such medical decisions for anyone, and it isn't your business to do so either. You believe that the Society is just using the organization to get free medical insurance, free meals, free lodging so that they don't have to go out and get real jobs, but what could be more important right now than our work in connection with preaching the good news of the kingdom?
The Society is a select group of Jehovah's Witnesses that are engaged in organizing the worldwide preaching campaign that has been underway for more than a century, and the world is a big place, we need them using every waking hour doing what all Christians are doing as they can make time for it, namely, preaching the good news in all the world, "to all creation" with urgency. (Mark 16:15; 2 Timothy 4:2) But you don't like it that we are urging folks to seek the bloodless surgical approach, and you don't like it that some Jehovah's Witnesses don't have to work 8-, 10-hour jobs everyday to pay for their meals, lodging and medical insurance.
Tell me this, @flipper: Do you think it right for the people that work here in the US as doctors, nurses, fire fighters, policeman, professors, construction workers, etc., that have volunteered in the relief effort underway right now in Japan to have to pay their own airfare and to pay for their own meals and to pay for their own medical care and to pay for their own rooming accommodations while they are in Japan? If not, then why do you think it not right for the people here that serve as volunteers in connection with the Society's work to have to pay for their own travel expenses, their own rooming accommodations, to pay for their own medical care, to pay for their own meals when they don't have jobs, when they don't have any earned income, when they are just volunteers? Why are you so concerned about what all of these volunteers are doing without compensation?
I'm thinking it's contempt for the work that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing is what's driving this concern of yours, that you don't respect what Jehovah's Witnesses are doing. I'm thinking it's out of envy that you say these things. Envy would explain everything I'm hearing from you here, @flipper.
To this, Jesus would tell you something along the lines of what he told Peter, "Of what concern is that to you?" (John 21:23) Maybe you are for the volunteer efforts in Japan, but you are against the volunteer efforts taking place in the world by Jehovah's Witnesses because you think that the work underway in Japan to be life-saving and the work being done by Jehovah's Witnesses in the world to not be life-saving. I don't know what you think or how you think. I told you in my previous post that you may not really be interested in hearing what I think, but I was really just commenting on your "strategy" to get your daughter to stop shunning you. To maybe stop shunning you.
Why must you be "a busybody in other people's matters," @flipper? (1 Peter 4:15) You have to know that this is the reason that you're suffering these days like a murderer, like a thief, like some evildoer, crying about how your daughter is being so unfair to you. Jesus would tell you to "continue following me" (John 21:22), and once you start attending meetings again as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and stop all of your whining and complaining, and realize that I'm much smarter than you are because, unlike you, I'm not a busybody, not a whiner, not a complainer, but just someone that is obediently following Jesus, then you will realize that I'm much smarter than you, period (a little repetition for emphasis there), or, maybe you already know this?
And when you begin to attend meetings again (you don't have to raise you hand when the discussion turns to overlapping generations, or 1914, and all of that kind of stuff that you cannot understand!), your daughter may, in fact, return to you, that is, if you are really interested in not being shunned by your daughter any longer while you are still able to draw breath.
This is how I see things: As long as you keep behaving in such a contrary way, you are the one responsible for shunning her!
Now on the matter regarding the two-witness rule, discussion of which during one of the many Watchtower studies you missed while you were being marked "Absent" over the last seven (7) years' time at your local congregation, let me set this up so that you'll have a much better understanding of why it was I told you, after reading your opening post in this thread, that you have a bit of a problem with thinking:
@djeggnog wrote:
[H]ow on earth can you hope to escape the two-witness rule? If this visit should turn out to have been a pretext for an investigation, then your daughter may have unwittingly made it easier for the elders to establish what your position on things is!
Matthew 18:16 states that "at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established," and so while this elder would be Witness #1 to these statements, your daughter would be Witness #2. You were safe saying those things here on JWN, but not to an elder at your home.
@Retrovirus wrote:
Applying a two-witness rule to separate incidents is, well, legally ridiculous.
@TD wrote:
In a fashion, I agree with DJeggnog. I don't think it was wise to discuss "spiritual" matters with this man.
@DesirousofChange wrote:
It does not take 2 witness TO THE SAME EVENT, it can be 2 witness to 2 different events of the same thing (support of apostate teachings) to set you up for a Judicial Committee. So, if a different elder returns to talk to you, or if Elder #1 returns with Elder #2, but Elder #1 goes back to the car, by you saying all the same things to Elder #2 will constitute TWO WITNESSES to your apostate views and qualify for you to be invited to a JC.
@Mary wrote:
If you want to avoid getting DF'd, I would not speak to any elder about anything doctrinally related, even if it's to only one of them. If they need 'two eye witnesses' to your 'apostasy', they could still get this with two seperate visits by individual elders---it doesn't have to be in front of both of them at the same time.
@Pistoff wrote:
DJeggnogg, what a piece of work you are; you couch your brainless defense of the WT in advice to Mr Flipper.
Except for @Retrovirus and @Pistoff here, there are many people here that are telling you exactly what I told you. You freely discuss your religious beliefs -- or lack thereof -- here on JWN, so there's no reason for me to believe that you don't do the very same thing IRL, and that you haven't said some of the same kinds of things to others that know you IRL, things that could make the one that heard you say any of these things "Witness #2," with this elder that you had the audacity to confess your disparate viewpoints as to your feelings about God's organization being "Witness #1." I might have asked you, "What were you thinking?" but I already know that you must have had a strong desire to confess your sins to an elder -- and you did! -- and thinking wasn't even an afterthought on your part, for thinking is really not something that you do, not something you're any good at doing.
You can cry and whine and complain tomorrow, but I would rather you come back to Jehovah today, @flipper, and I can help you to do just that if this is something that you want to do. I'm not trying to antagonize you, @flipper; I really want to help you return to Jehovah with at least some of your dignity intact. I have no interest in your daughter; she didn't get lost, but you were the one that got lost. Jesus said "continue following me" (John 21:22), and this is what you really need to be doing.
I've used theocratic warfare right back at em !
What exactly do you believe "theocratic warfare" to mean? You don't even believe in Jehovah at the moment, so think about what this phrase means -- do some research -- and then do not mindlessly use this phrase again without knowing what it means.
I know my daughters will come around some day- it's not a question of IF they exit the cult, but WHEN they'll exit the cult. I'm convinced of that. I have to be to keep hope alive.
You cannot really be hoping that your own daughters will both perish in this wicked system of things along with you, can you? You don't really believe a loving father would want something bad to happen or to affect their own children. What kind of a loving father would wish evil to befall any of their children? What if your bitterness against a few imperfect men -- "glorious ones" -- appointed by holy spirit should lead to their leaving Jehovah's organization with you? (Jude 1:8; Acts 20:28) I suppose you could start your own cult in which you redefine the meaning of "theocratic warfare" and "sanctification." Maybe "you guys" could make Noah the center of your worship since certainly, without Noah, not one of us would be here, right? Or, in your mind, is Noah as fictional as Jesus being the Christ?
@djeggnog
Is a male stripper or someone that flips burgers for a living somehow disqualified from their having a Bible study?.....DjEggNogg
Any study with a JW..
Disqualifys anyone and everyone from a Bible Study..
JW`s study WBT$ Literature about the Bible..There has never been,a WBT$/JW Bible Study..
EVER!!..
WBT$/JW Bible Study my Ass!..
.......................... 
...OUTLAW
Hey DJ I thought you were in Japan ??????? is their internet back up
Hey DJ I thought you were in Japan ??????? is there internet back up.....WasBlind
Maybe they can hire him to hose down Nuclear Fuel Rods?..
He`s certainly smart enough for the Job..
.......................... ...OUTLAW
Hey Outlaw ,
he told Miz that he could not respond to JGnat because he was on his way to Japan
he has time and internet service to respond to Flipp but he's runnin' from JGNAT
Misery said
Give you guys/gals a heads up. EggNogg just PMd me to let you know he's not going to be able to discuss the blood doctrine at this time. He's on his way to Japan to encourage all of those affected by the earthquake with Memorial Invitations. The Society gave the ok to start distributing the invitations two weeks early considering the tragedy. He sends his love to JWN, Agape, Eggnogg
WasBlind..
DjEggNogg is on his way to Japan?..
To do what?..
Clean Windows at one of the Nuclear Plants?..
.......................... ...OUTLAW
And buff floors
They could get DjEggNogg to Polish all the Old Fuel Rods..
The pay is good but nobody shows up for the 2nd day of work..
They`re all Dead by Lunch on the 1st day..
.......................... ...OUTLAW
