An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  tec

  Limited free will - limit the choices a person can make so that they cannot harm anyone else. They can only make the good choices. So if you go to make a bad choice, then you have something stopping you from following through and causing harm. Like the mitts acting like a buffer... which breaks down a little because there is no decision making at all involved, but I can kind of grasp your point. (or not, I might be totally off of what you meant, lol)

  Parents use the mitts so their newborns don't inadvertantly scratch themselves (severely).

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  jay88

  Parents use the mitts so their newborns don't inadvertantly scratch themselves (severely).

  ......

  Very simple.
• 

  tec

  I'm glad you're not sad from anything I did (or didn't) do or say, Nancy. But you don't have to apologize to me either. At all.

  Hateful people don't have peace in them. They hurt themselves, even as they try to hurt others. It is hard not to take insults to heart... but insults speak more about the person giving them, than the person they are directed at. And most everyone here has also been hurt.

  I hope all can find peace, and then also give it,

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  N.drew

  The world need a sweater. A very, very, big sweater.
• 

  tec

  See, comments like that sweater one make me grin, even laugh. (becasue I get what you're saying) I just don't always comment on them :)

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  AGuest

  First, no apology necessary, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)... ever. I hope I didn't offend YOU when I responded as to the reason why I continue with this discussion - it is important. We often forget, those of us engaged, that others are watching... and "listening"... as well. It is very similar, then, sometimes, the issue of whether man CAN govern himself (he can't, as he is NOW - look at his track record)... and whether just wiping Adham and Eve at the start would have answered that... or whether the matter needed to be played out. It may not have answered the question for some, but certainly has for others.

  Dear ST... peace to you, as well... and I just thought that if one ASKS questions one should at least condescend to answer a couple/few asked of THEM... even if one doesn't like the questions or think them invalid (stating that would be, IMHO, a response). It is interesting to me that I answered your question "isn't he their father,"... with no, he is not. I've also responded, MANY times, that His love is not limited to His children: it absolutely extends to those who do good TO His children. It also extends to others... for the same reason: mercy. But man doesn't WANT His intervention, for the most part, dear one; indeed, many of you hear openly, unbashedly, and vehemently ATTEST to that. Surely, you don't think you're alone. These call upon THEIR gods... and what you see is the "reply" - it is THEIR gods... the one(s) THEY bow down to, revere, worship, and serve... who leaves them in such conditions. Yes, I can say... WITHOUT reservation... if they called upon the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... THROUGH His SON, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH... they would be heard.

  Here, in THIS world, we have all KINDS of rules and regulations and processes and procedures and protocols for people to receive help/aid. Not just here in the U.S., but the world over. EVERY government, even if it's nothing more than a tiny tribe in the bush... has its "ways"... and one MUST acknowledge, respect, and proceed ACCORDING to these ways... in order NOT to offend (the leaders or the people of the government/tribe, whatever)... and get what they want or do what they want - even FEED the hungry.

  The Most Holy One of Israel has ONE [initial*] requirement... and that is that you approach HIM... through His Son. "JESUS"... is NOT His Son (and, while I am terribly sorry who that truth might offend here, I MUST state it because it IS the TRUTH). But one cannot go THROUGH a Door... that one either (1) does not know is THERE (because those with the responsibility to TELL them have told them of ANOTHER door); or (2) refuses to acknowledge that there IS a Door; or (3) refuses to acknowledge who, TRUTHFULLY, that Door is.

  Many have gone and keep going to these poor ones... telling them to call on... who? "Jesus." And the results? All that you all are complaining about: no relief. Then someone comes along and say, "Hey, wait... that's the WRONG NAME. There is no one by that name who can ANSWER. Try THIS name!" The result? Not, "Well, okay, let's give that a go - what do we have to lose... what do THEY have to lose, they're already suffering so; it really can't get worse!" Nope. It's either "Heck NO! We don't know THAT name and so we WON'T call on it!" or "Heck, NO - the other name doesn't work and so this one won't EITHER!"

  Yet, again, what have these folks to lose... how can it possibly get worse? But those who refuse to even ALLOW them to do so... those who try to stop this TRUTH... even those who profess to "believe"... don't realize that they, too... ARE SHUTTING UP [the DOOR to] the kingdom of the heavens!

  Now, I get that you may not get... or accept that. But it's the truth... and I can only tell you the truth. That is MY vow... which I made to MYSELF, not to God or anyone else. And I will not break that vow. Even if someone came forth and presented factual and tangible proof to me and the world that God and Christ did/do not exist... I would honor my vow to MYSELF... and tell the TRUTH about THAT.

  Believe me, it would be SO much easier... MY life would be much easier... if I just "went along with the program." Went along to get along. But that is what got most who no LONGER believe in God where they are in their [lack of] faith: going along to get along... even when they KNEW it was a lie, KNEW it was wrong... and being treated insolently when they could no longer do that. In addition, the "damage" that doing so wroughts... is among the worse that a person can experience! Yet, that is what is being called for here: for me to leave off what I KNOW is true... to follow what I [now] KNOW is false... to appease disbelief, even protect weak faith. How do people who take issue with religion... and, particularly, the WTBTS... even deign to ASK that of others???? Don't agree? Okay... don't agree. But how many here didn't/don't agree with the WTBTS and its teachings... and what kind of treatment/reception to did/do such ones receive as a result? I tell you, the hypocrisy is palpable... and almost overwhelming!

  My apologies - so much IN me on this one... but I cannot contain it, sorry.

  Again, I do wish you peace, TRULY... and please note that my "blows" weren't aimed at you, per se, but at the... hypocrisy. MANY of the questions propounded here I felt were... ummmm... pointless... utterly. But I also gave the propounders the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps they were sincere in their asking and TRYING to understand. And so... "bothered."

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Many have gone and keep going to these poor ones... telling them to call on... who? "Jesus." And the results? All that you all are complaining about: no relief. Then someone comes along and say, "Hey, wait... that's the WRONG NAME. There is no one by that name who can ANSWER. Try THIS name!" The result? Not, "Well, okay, let's give that a go - what do we have to lose... what do THEY have to lose, they're already suffering so; it really can't get worse!" Nope. It's either "Heck NO! We don't know THAT name and so we WON'T call on it!" or "Heck, NO - the other name doesn't work and so this one won't EITHER!"

  That and the preceeding paragraph serve to prove that AGuest is clearly about provoking arguments. She is against atheists, I get that. But she's also against those who call upon Jesus and yet they go on defending her as if she is a harmless amusing schizophrenic.

  A troll is a troll is a troll.

  One last thought on that. Give her enough rope and .....

  ...it may not be a hanging, but it's something like that:

  
• 

  AGuest

  I am not sure babies are exercising free will when they scratch themselves, dear Jay (peace to you!). I think it's actually more of an involuntary act: they WANT to move their hands (which the mitts don't restrict at all) in order to suck their fists/fingers (which they WANT to do). Unfortunately, in exercising their free will to SUCK... they sometimes scratch themselves. A parent CAN limit that scratching by putting mitts on them, yes. Or... they can cut and file the nails, which works, too. In both instances, however, the parent is merely trying to HELP the child refrain from "harming" itself.

  Which says to ME... that free will SHOULD be overcome by ONE thing... and sometimes is, even by God as it is with human parents: love. Parents who LOVE their child... and is concerned for their well-being, even down to the tiniest scratch... might override that child's free will... with their OWN will... in order to protect that child. Even from itself.

  Funny: when God DOES that i.e., cast Adham/Eve out of the garden), we cry foul. As if a parent should, what, cut off the child's hands, instead of restricting it's movement, so that it can't scratch itself... or anyone else... again.

  'It's mankind at fault - god has a plan, and he will work it in his due time'.

  What I don't get, dear Jeff (again, peace to you!)... is that that IS an answer (albeit, perhaps not acceptable/desirable to or liked by you...), yet you refuse to see it as such. That suggests to ME that there is no answer for YOU... accept that which IS acceptable/desirable to or liked by you. How is that "rational" or "logical"?

  Or ' Our minds are unable to grasp all the answers'. Or 'Let me show you another portion of scripture that explains THAT'.

  Again, answers... albeits not ones YOU like, etc...

  Or 'Let me show you another AGuest Book that explains THAT, filled with detailed explanation and exegesis.'

  What can I say... I try. If I DON'T answer, you take issue with that, too. "Little children in the marketplace..."

  I'll check back in a day or two, likely to see more of the same.

  Then why bother? If what has been proffered thus far hasn't "done it" for you... and you believe there will be more of the same... why check back? Surely, you've received an answer... one way or another (either via what's been posted... or that you won't receive one at all, at least not the one(s) you WANT). Since you don't believe anything will change, why waste your time? No, I'm serious - what is COMPELLING you to keep checking back?

  And that's bad

  But, yet, you WILL check back, won't you? Even though you believe you won't really have any reason to...

  In the meantime, since this post was started, between 6000 and 24000 children have died of hunger on the planet - your loving god did precisely nothing to stop it - and you spent 12 days praising him while ignoring the reality that he either does not exist, does not care, is impotent, or is evil.

  Yet, if I said to you that while perhaps between 6000 and 24000 died of hunger... 600000 to 2.4 million did not... you would become outraged... because YOUR view is that He is "obligated" to feed/save them all. Even though I've shared with you... TRUTHFULLY... just who He is OBLIGATED to feed/save... and why. Dear one, if YOU reject the TRUTH... how is it that YOU can take issue? To the contrary, shouldn't HE take issue with YOU... for purporting to "know"... when apparently you don't... EVEN THOUGH someone has TRIED to help you do so?

  If one human parent allowed one child to die of starvation when it was preventable in your neighborhood you would be calling for him to be held to the highest courts for his willful omission of action.

  Oh, please. Apparently, people in China wouldn't (or stop a child from being run over in the street!). Or Chile. Or other parts of South America. Or certain places in Africa. Bangladesh. India. Pakistan. The U.S. Appalachians. U.S. deep South. Inner city NYC, SF, LA, N'awlins, etc., etc., etc. It all depends on who "you" are, where "you" live... and what "you" believe. I personally wouldn't call for such - I realize that the world DOES let its children starve. I would HATE that it does, but recognize that it does. So, I do what I can... and leave the world, generally, to fend for itself.

  You would be aghast at such hateful treatment of a child

  I would, yes. I truly don't understand it... the lack of love. But it isn't just parents who let their children starve that I don't understand. There are parents whose children have an ABUNDANCE... yet, have absolutely no relationship with their parents. Don't understand that, either.

  But with your so-called omnipotent, omniscient,

  Now, see, there... you're still not listening: I've NEVER used those terms... ever. Yet, you continue to address me as if I have. Why should I listen to YOU... if you won't condescend to listen to ME... at ALL?

  all loving 'Heavenly Father'

  Perhaps you and I disagree on what "love" IS... and how it's manifest. I mean, we certainly disagree on what faith is... what peace is... what belief is... what spirit is...

  it is not only permissible that he do such a thing once, but thousands of times every day - with a full pass and full praise from you.

  This is very... ummmm... curious... statement to me. The Most Holy One of Israel neither needs... nor looks for... my permission. For ANYTHING. It is not for me to GIVE Him permission... or accept/reject what He does/does not do... and/or why. Even so, I have no problem with the things you obviously DO... because I understand WHY. You don't WANT to understand why. But that's on you, isn't it? I mean, you apparently have not problem accepting/understanding why MAN does nothing... why YOU do nothing... but even condescending to try and understand why HE does/does not... seems beyond you. YOU are unable to give the benefit of the doubt... not just that it IS "justice" being worked out... but any OTHER reason. But that's on you, dear one... YOUR refusal/inability to even consider the reasons... and no one else.

  That is just sickening to me. Indefensible despots do such things - not loving heavenly fathers!

  Oh, please. Again. Your "utter chagrin" and ripping of your garments is, as dear Shamus (peace to you, as well!) pointed out, nothing more than misplaced anger. YOU, then, need to take a step back and get honest with YOURSELF... as to who YOU'RE really "mad" at and about what. I would start with YOUR mother/father in the flesh. Be forewarned, however: it takes a LOT of guts to do that. A LOT.

  Again, peace to you, dear Jeff, truly. NOT in the way the world gives it... but in the way my Lord gives it... if you truly WISH peace. Because if you want us all to believe that all of this "anger" is at a God you don't even believe EXISTS... you're fooling yourself. And that (fooling oneself) can rob one of one's peace.

  Your servant (always, because I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel - "contenders with God" - and those who go with)... and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  N.drew

  This is very good.

  May I translate it in wipple, my native anguage? What is a name? A name describes where you came from (the actual name given, the way it should sound) and philosophically it means what is the aim and will it be reached. So I am careful to speak only wipple because if I attempt to speak a language I do not know, I might embarrase my real dad, who is dead right now, but I might see him again,and I would wish that he will be proud of me. So I speak wipple because it's the language I know. And I might make a fool of myself, if I try to learn another language any way.

  So world has given lots of names to lots of gods, but the names and gods aren't true because they are man made. World is mature. Now we understand that the imagination can be wrong, and it is obviously wrong. (because of the children dying of starvation) Now because the world is mature we can understand that an idol can be spiritual. AGuest says the idol's name is Jesus. You world have given your false god the name Jesus and your imagination has given your Jesus a job to do. That's wrong. The cut and paste long long name of AGuest's God is the real one. The real God has a name which the real God gave The real God's self and The real God has His Own Will To Do. Wipple.
• 

  AGuest

  AGuest is clearly about provoking arguments. She is against atheists, I get that. But she's also against those who call upon Jesus

  Oh, please. I am not against ANYONE, Jer... even your most blasphemous, hypocritical behind. If I saw your butt laying dying in the gutter... or standing on a corner with your hand out... or your wife's... or your childrens'... I wouldn't think twice about helping you OR them... blasphemer and hypocrite though YOU are. Nor am I about provoking arguments with ANYONE (which you are clearly attempting to do here)... but simply stating the truth. Oh, the hypocrisy. Palpable, Jer. You can cut it with an cement saw...

  Unlike you (once and perhaps again), Jer, I'm not on a mission to tickle ears and please people. I am not concerned with the glory of men but with the glory of God. One can't seek that... and conceded to falsehoods. Well, not actually. Many (including you) teach that one can have both, though. They're lying... just as you lied.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA, who really MUST refrain from rolling her eyes as to this one. Oh, my Lord, please... help your servant girl, now, because... well, you WELL know me... what's TRULY in me... and where, if left to myself, I COULD "go" with this one. Please... please... have mercy on your servant girl and grant me the fruits of our Father's holy spirit that is love... mildness... long-suffering... and self-control. Because I TRULY need those, right now... truly. Thank you, dear one... thank you. YOUR servant... to time indefinite and always...