An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

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  tec

  I wasn't going to come back here, but there is still hope for some.

  There is always hope for all :)

  While I disagree about putting ALL the blame on men, I can kind of see you believers' points on starving children in Africa. If you want to say it "pains" God to see humans mismanaging things that badly, I think it just serves to comfort your beliefs in Him standing by doing nothing, but I can see the other side of that too.

  If you can see and understand someone else's pov (without having to agree with it), then that is a big thing. It shows respect... from whomever is trying to understand. So...

  So stick with the children Indonesian tsunami victims. Trying to blame their parents for not having the expertise to save them isn't much of an excuse. Saying they or their parents don't know Joeashua Methusalah and Jah isn't much of an excuse. The fact remains that innocent children died in a natural disaster in which any existing omnipotent omnibenevolent "God" would have intervened.

  No, I don't blame their parents or anyone in a true disaster. (sometimes we know better than to live somewhere, but decide that the risk is worth living there... for whatever reason: job, view, temperature, etc. So those ones are kind of on us, as well.) I also am not certain as to the reason behind this... only that it wasn't meant to be like this. I have some little understanding that I posted earlier, but that you won't be able to accept, and I understand that too.

  However, I used to not understanding how God could allow suffering (that we cause), as well as many other things. But I trusted God, through trusting His Son. And I was granted understanding. So, for me, it is the same with physical disasters. I may not understand fully yet everything surrounding this and its consequences, but I trust... and I may yet recieve understanding on that.

  I do know that these bodies of ours (the physical) do grow old, die, become diseased, get broken. The physical world is tumultous and moving and shifting, etc. Without any of these things, physical life might not be possible. But the spiritual does not have to worry about these things.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  N.drew

  The question is: if God is real, why does God not prevent suffering by intervening in human affairs? Which affairs would you have God intervene in? The suffering that is obvious? The suffering that is too big for your brain to wrap around? All suffering, or only child suffering? I believe humans have in their makeup a system of coping with pain and suffering. Who put it there? Each person has their own pain tolerance. God would need to put that into consideration. Some people like a bit of pain sometimes. If god removed pain, do you think some people would be happy about that? And what about the people who make themselves sick on purpose?

  How would the tsunami be prevented? Or how would God gaurantee that the warning message "don't go to the beach today" or "go see your sister inland today" would be 1. heard 2. understood and 3. obeyed?

  I believe the problem isn't starving children in the news. The problem is society and the class system. Also that evil men gain power and lord it over the people. You'll have heard of propaganda, haven't you? When news companies film these terrible things that we see, isn't is tending toward what they want us to see? Don't they find the worst examples of suffering to show? I think they do. So now, my question that is ignored is: what is the difference to you of one sufferer or a million sufferers. Is there a difference to you? Please explain.
• 

  jay88

  So now, my question that is ignored is: what is the difference to you of one sufferer or a million sufferers. Is there a difference to you? Please explain.

  ............

  What would JC say?
• 

  AGuest

  my question that is ignored

  There are some questions may have been overlooked (vs. ignored, although methinks some literally have been ignored), dear Jay (peace to you!)... and others that have been asked... and answered... multiple times by multiple posters. So what? So, lots going on in the this thread... and perhaps we're all just going to have to condescend to give one another the benefit of the doubt (that questions have been overlooked). That is, of course, if one can.

  Which shouldn't be all that difficult really. Indeed, those who feel their questions weren't answered... sufficiently or at all... should at least probably endeavor to answer some questions themselves (and they (other questions) are there. Some twice).

  Otherwise, we're back to that old "H" word again, aren't we?

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
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  jay88

  I concur Shel!
• 

  still thinking

  Sorry Aguest...I didn't see the point in answering any of these questions: Because for the first four...God is supposedly NOT just the guy from down the street...The guy down the street did not supposedly create us...And the guy down the street has no ability to save starving or abused children in the same capacity as God supposedly does. So I found the questions kind of pointless...unless there was some particular point you were trying to make.

  If the point you are trying to make is that WE are responsible for caring for our kids..of course we are, but what about the children who's parents do not care for them or cannot care for them.....then I would go back to the point that being the father/creator...God would be ultimately responsible for caring for the children who cannot be cared for instead of watching them starve and not intervening.

  As for the last question...I no longer know, I shudder that the god that treats the world with such disdain could be my creator therefore ultimately my parent.

  May I ask you, though, on a previous page I asked the following questions. Would you be so kind as to respond as to yourself? If not, I understand, but I think that if you just considered them you might understand where "we're" coming from on some of these matters.

  • Would you blame the guy down the street if your were broke but your rent was due, utilities are about to be cut off, and your kids have no food?
  • Would you blame that guy if your child came down ill, perhaps even died?
  • Would you blame him if he said he didn't help because he had his "own" responsibilities and "own" kids to feed... or would you view that as a valid reason for not saving you and YOUR house/lights/kid(s) (i.e., what part of YOUR household is his responsibility)?
  • Would hold HIM responsible for NOT caring for you, YOUR household, and/or YOUR kids?
  • Do you believe that YOU are a child of God... and, if so, on what do you base that belief?

  I would like to end this comment with myelaines

  love michelle

  p.s. these little ones are NOT gods...they are humans...OUR human children.

  If THEY are not his...none of us are...guess you answered Aguest for me.
• 

  myelaine

  dear OnTheWayOut...

  the bible says that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one...that means that God doesn't hold much sway over the people of the world either. in Jesus' time He showed that He had control over nature (calming of the sea and the bursting nets of fish). the bible also implies that as evil men wax worse and worse toward the time of the end natural disasters will increase.

  After the redeemed of God AND creation is redeemed(romans 8:18-23) God will hold sway. Nature will be under His control again. incedentally, "backsliding" isn't going to go unnoticed...zech 14:16-19

  God allows us our free will but our choices have also allowed for our loss of protection from Him.

  love michelle

  p.s. still thinking...God made all from one blood/clay (acts 17:26)in this way we are His offspring...but God has adopted spiritual children to continue on with Him into eternity...we are not all His adopted spiritual children.
• 

  LV101

  One suffering is one too many --- and anyone w/a degree of mental health would vote for suffering/pain to be immediately eradicated. Anyone who makes themself physically sick is sick to begin with --- mentally sick/ill. Regardless, a side effect of life w/its problems and mankinds' weaknesses/sins.

  Yes, AGuest, multiple, repeat, answers on this thread and many of you have exerted much time. I've not read most but get the gist and no wonder it's difficult to feed the hungry children yet alone alleviate much suffering in the world when it's so hard to accept the way of the truth and love our neighbor. Obviously, much effort for mankind in our condition! I know I'm not happy w/the little I've done but perhaps this thread will be a good reminder to join the ranks (credible aid groups, organizations) of those more focused w/other countries.
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  still thinking

  Hmmm myelaine...and who are those spiritual children? You? Aguest? Tec? obviously not those starving children...he couldn't care less about them.
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  AK - Jeff

  I see the side-stepping of the OP continues, with some theists patting themselves on the back for their cleaver [they think] dodging of the philosophical questions posed 50 pages back.

  I know, I know. A guest will come back on, arguing that he/she answered the questions but was ignored. Not true of course, but it sounds good. A guest has written another book of two since I last checked, tec continues down the same road of denial of the original questions, and nancy just spouts gibberish.

  Just like Jw's at the door, these people seem to think that as long as they keep talking, all objections to god allowing millions of children to starve every year will just go away and be forgotten. It is [according to his followers and not me] well within his power and his love to fix the problem and eradicate hunger, yet he does not do so, so the inescapable conclusion is as stated in the OP. Precisely as we 'informed' the householders who made similar objections, these theists continue to do the same with 'It's mankind at fault - god has a plan, and he will work it in his due time'. Or ' Our minds are unable to grasp all the answers'. Or 'Let me show you another portion of scripture that explains THAT'. Or 'Let me show you another AGuest Book that explains THAT, filled with detailed explanation and exegesis.'

  I'll check back in a day or two, likely to see more of the same. In the meantime, since this post was started, between 6000 and 24000 children have died of hunger on the planet - your loving god did precisely nothing to stop it - and you spent 12 days praising him while ignoring the reality that he either does not exist, does not care, is impotent, or is evil.

  If one human parent allowed one child to die of starvation when it was preventable in your neighborhood you would be calling for him to be held to the highest courts for his willful omission of action. You would be aghast at such hateful treatment of a child - But with your so-called omnipotent, omniscient, all loving 'Heavenly Father', it is not only permissible that he do such a thing once, but thousands of times every day - with a full pass and full praise from you. That is just sickening to me. Indefensible despots do such things - not loving heavenly fathers!

  Jeff