Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?

by leavingwt 268 Replies latest jw friends

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    No its not. There is nothing about the bible that is not very mundane.

    Sorry, fully, explained. We know that emperor constantine and people of that era put it together. So there is an explanation for it on that level. We can research those people and read about the king and his interests and actually have a lot for logic to work with. However Genesis 1 specifically is what's not explainable without leaving room for further study. Who was moses really? Why did he believe in this grouping of parables so much to write it down for his people? So in that regard there is lots left to "be explained."

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    A lot of the content derived from the OP is from the first book of the Bible. The part of the Bible that is obviously mythology to the writer. Mythology is always allegory for something so that's where I choose to focus on. So I actually research what ideas could have influenced the stories and such as well as natural events. The Bible is a huge mystery and people who follow Dawkins are afraid to admit it I presume. I would theroize that Richard Dawkins actually likes the story of Genesis as a story because of how moral (TOPIC WORD) it really is on a philisophical level. Why was presevering morality of interest to the writer? You have to read to find out.

    -Sab

  • cofty
    cofty

    Genesis 1 specifically is what not explainable without leaving room for further study

    What is it about Gen 1 you find mysterious exactly?

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    What is it about Gen 1 you find mysterious exactly?

    Sorry I meant Genesis 1-3 specifically. The whole book has me spellbound coupled with my general knowledge abou the Bible. (READ THE BIBLE DAILY... NOT WEEKLY... NOT MONTHLY.... DAILY).

    "Put garbage in garbage box. Seems easy enough. Paradise here I come."

    -Sab

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    I don't believe that once you break away from your overlord that the Bible turns to ash, in fact I think that's lazy thinking.

    I might use the term intellectually honest over intellectually lazy but to each, his own.

    Why would I cut the Bible more slack than any other holy book if not for bias?

    Intellectual integrity demands consistency in the intellectual standards we apply, so that we hold ourselves to the same demanding standards of evidence and proof as we hold our antagonists. It means we practice what we preach... that we try to find and eliminate discrepancies and inconsistencies in our own thought and action.

    So once we break away from our overlord, do we apply the same scrutiny to El Bibel as we do to the Quran? Or do we excuse the Quran or offer it the same benefit of "presumed mysticism" as we do El Bibel?

    To stand back and say, "Okay, I need to drop my old presuppositions and start over fresh from a neutral position," is a far cry from intellectually lazy. That's my opinion, at least.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    So once we break away from our overlord, do we apply the same scrutiny to El Bibel as we do to the Quran? Or do we excuse the Quran or offer it the same benefit of presumed mysticism as we do El Bibel?

    I try to read the Quran as well and the Book of Morman, at least commentary on it and study up on Eastern texts. It is my strong belief that they are all from the same source and that it will be proveable in the future as technology presents itself. There are striking similarities all religions that really "clicked" in regards to transcendence from animal to human.

    Consider what the ever so pleasent Book of Jude says:

    Jude 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    Jude 1

    1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

    To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

    2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

    The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

    3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

    11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

    12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

    14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

    A Call to Persevere

    17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

    20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

    22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

    Doxology

    24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    I think there is reason to believe that people figured out we were very close to animals long before it was acceptable to hold such an opinion. Eventually, however, like any truth it boils forth, which is a process, into the outside world.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    I can't put the Quran under the same microscope because I know there are people on this planet that would kill me without a thought for doing so. Ideas lay dormant for long stretches of time it seems and waits for fertile ground to spring forth, which is always diffcult as a blade cuts threw earth and reaches toward the sun for strength.

    -Sab

  • cofty
    cofty
    It is my strong belief that they are all from the same source - Sab

    Yes they are all from the same source, human imagination. "The Koran is borrowed from both Jewish and Christian myths" - Christopher Hitchens.

    The book of mormon is risble. Where have your critical thinking skills gone Sab?

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    The book of mormon is risble. Where have your critical thinking skills gone Sab?

    Cofty thank you for teaching me a new word. This is really what peaks my interest in them:

    Factors affecting DNA composition of the New World population

    LDS scholars also say that the DNA taken from modern day Israelis has been intermixed with DNA from many other nations, thus they do not contain the same traits that Israelites had when Lehi left Israel (Stubbs 2003). Also, modern Native Americans have intermixed, which has changed their DNA from that of their ancestors' as well. It is also noted by LDS researchers that another factor affecting genetic diversity of New World inhabitants is the fact that 90% of the population died as the result of disease introduced by the Spaniards and others after their arrival (Coe 2002, p. 231). [ 12 ]

    Michael F. Whiting, director of Brigham Young University's DNA Sequencing Center and an associate professor in BYU's Department of Integrative Biology, concluded in his article "DNA and the Book of Mormon: A Phylogenetic Perspective" that Book of Mormon critics attempting to use DNA "have not given us anything that would pass the muster of peer review by scientists in this field, because they have ignored the real complexity of the issues involved. Further, they have overlooked the entire concept of hypothesis testing in science and believe that just because they label their results as "based on DNA," they have somehow proved that the results are accurate or that they have designed the experiment correctly. At best, they have demonstrated that the global colonization hypothesis is an oversimplified interpretation of the Book of Mormon. At worst, they have misrepresented themselves and the evidence in the pursuit of other agendas." Additionally, although he admits the usefulness of population genetics and of DNA in inferring historical events, he contests that, "given the complexities of genetic drift, founder effect, and introgression, the observation that Native Americans have a preponderance of Asian genes does not conclusively demonstrate that they are therefore not descendants of the Lamanite lineage, because we do not know what genetic signature that Lamanite lineage possessed at the conclusion of the Book of Mormon record." Lastly, he concludes, "[There is] a strong possibility that there was substantial introgression of genes from other human populations into the genetic heritage of the Nephites and Lamanites, such that a unique genetic marker to identify someone unambiguously as a Lamanite, if it ever existed, was quickly lost." and that, "There are some very good scientific reasons for why the Book of Mormon is neither easily corroborated nor refuted by DNA evidence, and current attempts to do so are based on dubious science" (Whiting 2003, pp. 24–35).

    Murphy responded to Whitings comments as follows: "While Whiting, in his presentation for FARMS at BYU, exclaimed delight at the prospect of evolutionary biology coming to the defense of the Book of Mormon, he offered no scientific data to substantiate an Israelite origin of indigenous peoples anywhere in the Americas. In fact, he conceded, 'current genetic evidence suggests that Native Americans have a genetic history representative of Asia and not the Middle East.'". Murphy further states "One of the most surprising critiques to emerge was the false allegation that I am evading peer review or that the research I reviewed would not stand up to peer review." "the article ("Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics") was a summary of genetic research on Native American origins, nearly all of which had been subjected to peer review prior to publication in leading scientific journals such as American Journal of Human Genetics, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, and American Journal of Physical Anthropology." "Whiting's and Lambert's claims are little more than an inaccurate projection of the inadequacies of LDS apologetics onto my publications." (Murphy, p. 113)

    I can see both sides, but that means that there are two sides. To me the idea of a lost tribe of Israel coming over to the America's is intriguing to both imagination and is an idea to explain why America seems so interested in the Torah being included in the Bible. I was playing poker one day at a local poker house and Christianity came up in a conversation. My friend that I thought I knew well simply stated that, "Jesus was the way the truth and the life." I then started to talk about Moses and he stoped me and said, "Who's Moses? That baby in the Nile story? What's Moses got to do with anything." His ignorance to the obvious attachment of the NT to the OT is astounding to me. Interestingly there does seem to be enough morality in the NT to indeed completely supercede the OT. However it's best not to lose historical context and focus on idealogy because that's how you get entities like the Watchtower.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Yes they are all from the same source, human imagination.

    Imagination can be for good or evil. How do you know someone isn't concocting evil against you? How do you know what you imagine up isn't evil in the eyes of another?

    -Sab

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