Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • caliber
    caliber

    There has been some back and forth that "Magic" is the same as "Miracles"....or at least similar. I will agree with that. True magic is using the unseen spirit world to cause effects in the physical world.

    Some have a middle ages mindset that Sorcery is magic wands, pointed hats, magic spells, and magical items.

    I believe that Sorcery does exist today, but it is not the fantasy and storybook kind of Sorcer y and Magic that is commonly thought of

    Sorcery and Witchcraft at its most basic form is the desire to control and manipulate events and individuals,

    But the threat of Sorcery is not the magic of Harry Potter

    Imagination is a wonderful gift for children to develop

    It's all about degrees & balance... not making black and white conclusions... drawing extreme conclusions... using common sense and discernment

    is a must

    sor·cer·y /'sôrs?re/
    Noun:
    The use of magic, esp. black magic.
  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    If both staffs WERE changed supernaturally, the ONLY difference is WHO caused the change.....CA

    Good point which makes this an Incredibly Stupid thread..

    Who gave Satan the power of making a Miracle/Magic?..

    Who gave Moses the power of making a Miracle/Magic?..

    It all comes from one place..

    Thats right Recovery..Me!..

    No I`m not Burger King you Idiot!..

    God

    ........................ ...OUTLAW

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Outlaw raises a good point: God ultimately was/is battling the very same power he gave to Satan, so much like the "evil thoughts in the hearts of men" defect which was offered as justification for the Flood, God fails by making flawed creations which only end up going bad, and he is not able to intervene.

    What a long long way to go, simply to explain why uncertainties, misfortunes, evil, and death exists!

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care

    Interesting thread.

    It seems the difference between many of us, and Recovery is his implicit trust that the bible is something more than the words of men trying to control the populace, by pretending to know and describe who the creator is, and our reasons for being here etc.

    Sorry to muddy the waters; but the standards that the desert god created puts science and reason in the same category as magic. When you really boil it down, magic is just principals of physics that are not understood. Why shouldn't every effort be made to undertstand and use these laws of physics for our betterment?

    I'd really encourage you to look at the bible more closely, minus the lense of WT$ dogma. The accounts of flaming sword, and logical problems with the flood account, and the violence inherent in the animal kingdom are worth some serious reflection. Doing so will hopefully help you see the many problems of putting so much stock in a book so full of contridictions and hypocrisy.

    Recovery, it seems quite obvious to me that you are a babe to real truth, and you need time to grow. While you're doing this, try to spare yourself embarrassment by not picking fights with others who clearly intellectually outmatch you.

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    God ultimately was/is battling the very same power he gave to Satan

    So what? Power can be given to someone and that same power can be abused. Does that make the one that gave the power responsible? If the city gives a good cop a gun and that same cop goes corrupt and uses the gun to unjustifiably kill someone, is the city responsible?

    It's the same question as "Did God create evil". The way I look at it is evil is not a thing, it's a mere degredation of what is good. Evil is merely goodness gone corrupt. So if God created "Good" then evil was always a potential. Especially with free will.

    Also, so much of this is reading into things we have no knowledge about. We don't know how certain things work in the supernatural. If you don't believe in the supernatural, that's fine. But if you do, you know that you can't fully explain it because it has not been disclosed. So in a sense, the direction this thread has gone is pointless because there are no answers.

    I'll probably get stoned for this and I'm not saying that my logic is good in this, but it would be like talking about a certain area of science that cannot be answered at the present. Let's talk about what caused the singularity to explode. How did that singularity come into existance? What happened before then? Some questions don't have answers...at least yet.

  • rip van winkle
    rip van winkle

    Caliber said-Sorcery and Witchcraft at its most basic form is the desire to control and manipulate events and individuals,

    Am I the only one that sees the Sorcerer on JWN?

  • elderelite
    elderelite

    Sigh... Christalone, if the discussion is going to amount to anything we need recovery to express how he differentiates the two events. Ill wait for recovery to respond....

  • Stealth
    Stealth

    Since YHWH had not selected the bible students as his chosen organization on earth yet, was C. T. Russell's Miracle Wheat really Magic Wheat?

    If 'Miracle Wheat' in what way did it serve God's will?

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    Sigh... Christalone

    Sorry...I digressed. I would like to see what Recovery thinks about all this. What SPECIFICALLY is the difference between magic and holy spirit as believed by Jehovah's Witnesses as well as magic vs miracles.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    Jwfacts said: This is yet another of your false arguments, that no doubt you think is accurate, yet again because of indoctrination. The Bible does not say that these things would be done away with "after the restraint of the Apostles", that is what the Watchtower says. The Bible shows that the gifts would not be done away with until “that which is complete arrives” and we see “face to face”, which is a reference to going to heaven.

    Actually, this is not a false argument at all. We will now show from 2 Thessalonians exactly what Paul meant and why the gifts would be done away with. 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 "we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
    3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?"

    Paul is addressing the brothers and reminding them that they should not be mislead that the day of Jehovah is near, and that he has told them these things on previous occassions.

    Now, he says "And SO NOW YOU KNOW THE THING THAT ACTS AS A RESTRAINT.." Yes, Paul is adjusting and correcting the brothers thinking so that they are not deceived by this man of lawlessness/apostasy. The other apostles who write letters to the congregations do a similar thing as well, they admonish and remind the brothers to keep spiritually awake.

    Verse 7 "True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents.."

    After the restraint excercised by the apostles, the lawless one will be revealed. He will deceive with 'every powerful work' and 'lying signs' and 'portents'. Notice Paul says that 'the mystery of this lawlessness is ALREADY AT WORK'. Why is there a need for this letter to be written? Because the brothers have been deceived by verbal expressions (tongues, prophesying) and false, forged letters from false apostles (who would prove their authority with their ability to perform these miracles). The lawless one's presence is marked by EVERY POWERFUL WORK. There will no longer be a distinction of the false gifts from the true gifts after the apostasy sets in and that is why they will be done away with.

    Acts 2:15-18 “These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, ‘”And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days and they will prophesy.’”

    Paul describes the features of the last days in extensive detail in 2 Timothy 3. He describes these last days as a future event, meaning they have not yet come. Peter does a similar thing in 2 Peter. That is why the prophecy was quoted, because it was being fulfilled at Penecost 33 C.E, not the last days that correlate to Christ's parousia. Paul tells us the presence of the lawless one and the apostasy will be marked by powerful works and signs and portents. Jesus says many will say to me in that day 'did we not prophesy in your name' and 'perform many powerful works in your name?'. The Bible does not show that miracles/signs are a prerequisite to show God's backing and that is where you blundered.

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