Just posting so that I can see the last page - the page numbers never show up on this thread for me.
Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?
by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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james_woods
Sure, within the context of the story. However, I suspect that it didn't actually happen, but that's a whole other subject altogether.
-Sab
Anybody who thinks ANY of that magic stuff really happened is just not living a realistic life in the 21st Century.
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keyser soze
What about pulling off a tablecloth without taking the dishes with it? Which one does that fall under- magic or miracle?
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mrsjones5
Definitely magic.
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rip van winkle
Finkelstein, can you leave him this way? At least NOW he looks less GFY!
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Finkelstein
Which one does that fall under- magic or miracle?
It all depends on who is doing the act, if its done by god (YHWH) its a miraculous miracle,
if its done by someone other than God, then its evil spirit derived magic.
A proverbial case of the pot calling the kettle black
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cognisonance
Recovery, I am happy to hear you are interested in logic fallacies (I am learning myself). I didn't read all of this thread so I appologize if this has already been mentioned, but you start out with the assertion that JwFacts is making a false analogy. A false analogy (also called a weak analogy) takes the following form:
A is like B.
B has property P.
Therefore, A has property P.
(Where the analogy between A and B is weak.) 1The key point here is that the analogy between A and B has to be sufficently weak for it to be fallacious. All analogies, even the strongest ones, aren't perfect and do break down at some point (i.e. become weak). For example here is one in the bible (the strength or weakness of this analogy is more in how it is used):
"For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God" (ESV, Hebrews 3:4)
Sometimes this analogy is used with regards to the earth, to support the view it was created by God. There are many similarities. A house provides us shelter and safety (from storms and cold), so does the earth (from solar storms and the cold of space). We enjoy a clean house; so do we enjoy a clean earth. There any many more. But even this analogy has weak points (that don't automatically make it fallacious per se). For example, the earth rotates around an axis and moves through space around the sun. A typical house is stationary and does not rotate and move. So this is one area where the analogy breaks down. (I want to point out that all human-made houses are indeed made by humans (what of caves used as a home, though?), but that doesn't neccessarily mean that the earth was created by a builder too. Simply using an analogy does not make it true. There needs to be more to one's argument here than just this.)
Now if we use this "every house is built by someone" analogy and apply it to "but the builder of life is God." Well what are the similarities here? Both have the appearance of design. Okay, in some ways life also has the appearance of an intelligent designer. Are there any other similarities? I can't think of any others. The main one is a house has the appearance of design, so does life. What of the differences? Is a living thing our home (it might be to those that believe in the soul-body speration, but not for JWs)? Is a house alive? Does a house have offspring? It's quite easy to show that this analogy is weak.
To stay on topic, with the magic vs. miracle question, true there is a difference, I will admit that, just as there are differences in all analogies. But does it matter, is the analogy so weak that it doesn't make sense to compare the two? Are the similarities so weak, and any differences strong? Consider this while I comment on what you said earlier:
No, the only thing that made anyone look stupid is attempting to use magic and miracles interchangeably when Jehovah expressly condemned one and endorsed the other. Even a thesarus does not use the two words interchangeably as synonyms but makes a clear distinction between the two.
In the JW worldview (as well as the respective bible writer's world view) Magic ≠ Miracles. However, this line of thinking is fallacious becuase it is a Distinction without a Difference. I would argue that the magic vs. miracles have strong similarities and weak differences. Not the other way around. A Distinction without a Difference fallacy is stated as follows:
The assertion that a position is different from another position based on the language, when in fact, both positions are exactly the same -- at least in practice or practical terms. 2
In this case you argue that magic ≠ miracles becuase one is of the "true God" and all other forms are from "false gods," via Satan (or via Satan and the demons directly).
But in practice or in practical terms there is no difference. The only difference is how people view the two, but that is point of view, not a practical difference. So ofcourse JWs and bible writers would not see the supernatural things Moses, Araon, etc did as magic (to them the difference is a strong one, not weak). However, a person that does not believe in the bible, like an athiest, would not see any difference between what Moses and Araon did and the magic practicing priests of Egypt (as there is no practical difference to them between Moses' God and those of Pharoah's, as they don't believe in god(s) anyway). In practice the account was a pissing match between Moses' God and Pharoah' God(s). One of Pharoah's "magic" practicing priests did x, one of Moses' "miricale" practicing priests did x as well, etc.
1 Curtis, Gary. "Weak Analogy." Fallacy Files. 25 Setp. 2012. <http://www.fallacyfiles.org/wanalogy.html>.
2 Bennet, Bo. "Distinction without a Difference." Logically Fallacious. 25 Setp. 2012. <http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/79-distinction-without-a-difference>.
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein, can you leave him this way? At least NOW he looks less GFY!
ummm ?? Well Halloween is coming up isn't it ?
I think he would look dashing on my front porch !
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elderelite
Lol wow! So the same exact action, turing a staff into a snake, with the same end result is done by different means.... One is "magic" one is a "miracle". Please define what differantiates the two....
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Christ Alone
Please define what differantiates the two....
I think I already did. Observationaly....there is no difference. If both staffs WERE changed supernaturally, the ONLY difference is WHO caused the change.