by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Awww common recovery... Its a simple question: how do you describe the differance
between moses rod turing to a snake and pharos priests rod's turning to snakes?.....EE
I can`t..
Finklestien turned my Head into a Pumpkin..
He said Abbra Kadabra!..
........................ 
...OUTLAW
Christ alone said:
So what? Power can be given to someone and that same power can be abused. Does that make the one that gave the power responsible? If the city gives a good cop a gun and that same cop goes corrupt and uses the gun to unjustifiably kill someone, is the city responsible?
The problem with your analogy above is that God didn't simply hire the cop: he MADE the cop (and think of Robocop, where some corporation faces product liability lawsuits if their faulty, defective product causes harm and injury to others).
Who said, "to whomever much is given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him more will be asked"? That applies to the God who demands all the credit for making Heaven and Earth, too. YHWH wants credit for the good stuff, but suddenly is out for the day when things go awry.
It's the same question as "Did God create evil". The way I look at it is evil is not a thing, it's a mere degredation of what is good. Evil is merely goodness gone corrupt. So if God created "Good" then evil was always a potential. Especially with free will.
"Goodness gone corrupt"? You deep-thinker, you! Next you'll say that evil is the opposite of good? :)
BTW, God doesn't give man the permission to exercise "free will" when it comes to sinning: "free will" only applies to conscience matters.
If you believe that is false, then you clearly don't understand how terms basic to Xian eschatology (such as Divine Will, Free Will, and Sin) interact.
Also, so much of this is reading into things we have no knowledge about. We don't know how certain things work in the supernatural. If you don't believe in the supernatural, that's fine. But if you do, you know that you can't fully explain it because it has not been disclosed.
That's called "appeal from ignorance", saying we don't know, but we should still believe in the unknown?
So in a sense, the direction this thread has gone is pointless because there are no answers.
And what do REASONABLE RATIONAL people do with things which are PROPOSED to exist, but for which there is no evidence? That's right: they don't believe in them. There may be a 79th dimension, but I don't waste brain cycles on it, until I'm presented some compelling reason or need to accept that model of reality into MY brain. Until then, there's no point worrying about bogeymen under beds, Satan Claus, or Satan with magic/miracles.
PS along those lines, in the past I've been careful to distinguish 'miracles' by referring to them as "God Magic™". In the interest of fairness and impartiality, I probably should start referring to 'magic' as "Satan Miracles™". Maybe that'll help?
I'll probably get stoned for this and I'm not saying that my logic is good in this, but it would be like talking about a certain area of science that cannot be answered at the present. Let's talk about what caused the singularity to explode. How did that singularity come into existance? What happened before then? Some questions don't have answers...at least yet.
Well, unlike practicing magic in OT days, there's certainly no prohibition against considering issues faced by theoretical physicists, enforced under penalty of death. Remember, science is DRIVEN by seeking answers to questions, not prohibiting the asking.
That's kind of the point someone touched on above:
In the past, healing the sick and ill was considered as a miraculous sign, whereas today people are routinely healed by science and medicine of many illnesses that were fatal, even a few decades ago. So is man's healing considered performing a magical sign? Fact is, magic WAS part-and-parcel of the healing arts in ancient times. Is healing also a challenge to God's domain, a threat to God's territory by men sticking their noses into God's business?
Caliber said: "The major difference between magic and miracles seems to be intent , purpose and source.
Magic intends to astonish..to focus attention on power itself . Bible miracles were to address
real needs of people."
Excellent. I am glad some one else has gotten the point.
"
Christ Alone said: You have to consider the context. When the word "magic" was used, it was not refering to fantasy or fantastic stories. It was refering to the use of "real" magic" as practiced by those that were under the infulence of evil. Whether you believe in evil spirits like the devil or not, this is what the scriptures were speaking about. JWs speak out against magic. But how many of them have watched "The Wizard of Oz"? I went and saw Lord of the Ring while I was at bethel with a bunch of other bethelites. But lets dig down deeper and consider what really IS magic. Is it just something that is unnatural and uncanny as has been brought out? Are super heros "magic"? It is not natural to have the power to fly. It is unnatural to turn invisible. Why is that NOT magic? How bout certain sci fi elements? IT is not natural to travel through time. See, the JWs have a problem here with simple hermeneutics. They do not consider the audience that the scriptures were written to. They don't consider the culture. They don't consider what was really being taught. Similarly, the forbiding of magic was written to Israellites that existed around nations that used the spirit realm and it's powers to fight against God. There has been some back and forth that "Magic" is the same as "Miracles"....or at least similar. I will agree with that. True magic is using the unseen spirit world to cause effects in the physical world. God can do the same. The JW concept of the holy spirit seems to line up with magic. I'll admit that. They don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. They think it's a force. Well, if they were honest, magic TOO is a force. But fantasy is different from reality. We call slight of hand "MAGIC". We call inspiration "MAGIC" (as in the magic of disney). We call fantasy "magic". Is THAT sort of magic ALSO condemned by God. I think not. He was speaking about using the opposing evil world of Satan and the demons to effect a change in they physical realm. That is my stand.
The distinction between "magic" (in general) and specific types of magic (or unexplained supernatural events we see today) are explained in the Bible. We cannot just look at the Bible and say well, this is talking about the Israelites, not us. This is talking about eating animal blood only, and should not be applied to ingesting blood for nutrition via blood transfusion. The Bible is not a book of laws that is suited to every specific case and every specific situation, because it would be a never-ending, constantly growing encyclopedia of do's and don'ts. What we have in the Bible are principles that will last to time indefinite. God does not change and his principles will never change. No when JW's are talking about the condemnation of magic we are not talking about things such as a talking lion or a flying human or a talking ogre. Yes these are supernatural events. But magic is not simply supernatural events. The type of magic condemned in the Bible are not simply supernatural events. We know what specific types of magic are not pleasing to Jehovah because he specifically names them. Foretelling events, sorcery, divination, consulting the dead, casting spells, use of a spirit medium, and so forth are expressly defined as forms of magic and are condemned.
Notice the list of synonyms in relation to the word magic:
astrology,augury, bewitchment,black art,conjuring, conjury, devilry,diabolism,divination,enchantment,exorcism,fascination, foreboding, fortune-telling, hocuspocus, horoscopy, illusion, incantation,legerdemain,magnetism,necromancy, occultism, of impossiblefeats by tricks abracadabra,power, prediction,presage, prestidigitation,prophecy, rune, sleightofhand,soothsaying,sorcery,sortilege, spell, superstition,taboo, thaumaturgy,trickery, voodoo,voodooism,witchcraft,wizardry You will never get these terms when you look up the word "miracle" in a dictionary. The only thing that connects them is the use of a SUPERNATURAL FORCE. However, the source of that supernatural force is what makes one acceptable and one condemned. |
Awww common recovery... Its a simple question: how do you describe the differance between moses rod turing to a snake and pharos priests rod's turning to snakes?
Because of the SOURCE behind the supernatural repercussions that caused the event to take place. This is exactly why Jwfacts use of Bible accounts is defined as a false analogy: "an assumed similarity between two things, people, or situations when in fact the two things being compared are not similar in the manner invoked."
Wow, King Solomon, I'm beginning to see why so many people on JWN don't like you. You don't have a very kind way of speaking, do you? It seems like you get off on tearing people down and trying to come off as a bully.
But no worries, I'll answer some of the things you said.
"Goodness gone corrupt"? You deep-thinker, you! Next you'll say that evil is the opposite of good? No spit.
What I meant by goodness gone corrupt is that evil existing doesn't necessarily mean that God created evil. Things breakdown and degrade. Rust is an example. I'm sorry if this was too symplistic for you. Many of the points I brought out seem to be too simple for you, and that's fine. Just ignore them.
BTW, God doesn't give man the permission to exercise "free will" when it comes to sinning: "free will" only applies to conscience matters.
Sure he does. He tells you what the outcome will be regarding sinning, but you can keep on going. You may have to live with consequences, but you are still free to sin. Try and understand the words "free will" first, ok? It's different than having no consequences.
That's called "appeal from ignorance", saying we don't know, but we should still believe in the unknown?
Sigh...again, you misunderstand. (Seems to be a theme). I didn't appeal to ignorance. I said there were things that I do not yet understand. I can believe in something that I don't FULLY understand. I don't fully understand how gravity works, but I see enough evidence to believe in it. I'm sorry if that example too is too simple for you. I was merely saying that there are some things that can't be commented on because full knowledge of it isn't readily available. That's a good thing. It pushes us to explore and investigate. Not to stay ignorant.
for which there is no evidence?
You are the one saying there is no evidence. Gee...talk about logical fallacy. You saying there is no evidence does not mean there is no evidence. There are plenty of eyewitness accounts and other pieces of scientific evidence (whether you believe them or not) that show that there is a supernatural realm. You'll find plenty of people (scientists included, whether you believe them or not) that believe there is sufficient evidence.
Rereading your past posts over the past while, I think you were and are just looking an opportunity to insult someone. I saw you do the same with Cedars and others on the site. It must be sad and lonely to have those feelings for others and have so much fake pride in yourself that you can't help but try to insult others to make yourself feel better.
You have my pity, KS.
Magic intends to astonish..to focus attention on power itself .
Bible miracles were to address real needs of people."
Excellent. I am glad some one else has gotten the point......Recovery
So your saying:
Pharaoh`s Priests turned a Rod into a Snake to Astonish.. But ..
Moses turned a Rod into a Snake because ..
Someone Needed a Snake..
???????????????????..
Thats just Effing Stupid..
............................ ...OUTLAW
So in the DVD, why did Calebs mom not get more details about what KIND of magic Sparlock was practicing. According to you, some magic is not bad. It's only certain forms of magic that God was talking about.
So what form of magic was Sparlock guilty of.
Also...It seems a bit silly to point out but...
SPARLOCK IS A TOOOOOYYYYYYY!!!!! HE'S NOT REAL! HE'S NOT PRACTICING MAGIC AS COMING FROM SATAN!!!! HE'S A TOY!
One of the easiest ways to find out the meaning of a particular word is to look up a thesarus and find a long list of synonyms that have similar meaning to it. Let's do this again with the word "magic"
Magic: " alchemy, allurement,astrology, augury, bewitchment,black art, conjuring, conjury, devilry, diabolism,divination,enchantment, exorcism,fascination, foreboding, fortune-telling, hocuspocus, horoscopy, illusion, incantation, legerdemain, magnetism, necromancy, occultism, of impossible feats by tricks abracadabra,power, prediction, presage, prestidigitation, prophecy, rune, sleight of hand, soothsaying, sorcery, sortilege, spell, superstition, taboo, thaumaturgy,trickery, voodoo, voodooism, witchcraft, wizardry, Satanism, demon worship,
Do the synonyms honestly convey a similar list of synonyms you'd expect when you type in the word "miracle"? If no, why not? If it does not, then the two terms are distinctive and not interchangeable.
Yes, but not all those words are condemned by God. Slight of hand? Exorcism? Power? Fascination?
No, you can't say "Jehovah hates Magic". Magic IN ENGLISH, encompasses more than was meant when it was written in Hebrew. That is why you have to observe context. God deos not hate all forms of magic as we define it today. That's something you can't argue with.
Do you turn off ANYTHING that has magic in it, Recovery? What about Pinochio? He's brought to life by magic. Lord of the Ring has to do with magic. Do you turn that off? What about someone that "performs" magic in Vegas? Is that too condemned? Would you walk away from that?
Hmmm, why is there something wrong with Caleb's toy? Oh, I don't know. Perhaps because it's called Sparlock: The Warrior Wizard
Questions: Is wizardry a form of spiritism/magic as condemned in the Bible? Yes or no. Does it show a hatred and a respect for what Jehovah hates to carry a toy that perpretrates something that he finds detestable? Yes or no.
