The antidote to the myth that JWs are declining

by slimboyfat 153 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • iCeltic
    iCeltic

    I thnk the reduction in hours for a pioneer is a massive reason why there are many more now. I'm not sure what the reg hours are now, I think it's 60? That a massive difference from 90 when you are also trying to earn a living at the same time.

    i know the cong I was part of in Scotland years ago has decreased. I am very good friends with an ex elder who left just 2 years ago, he was telling me when he was an elder in 2011 there were only 3 elders in the hall. There was something like 15 when I was there.

    Figures are deceiving. Whether there are more jw's now, less, more or less elders, more or less pioneers, what difference does it make? It could increase 10 fold and it wouldn't be any more true than it is today. Something is still false whether 10 believe it or 10 million.

  • Shador
    Shador

    Hmmm... the quality/quantity debate led me to do some number crunching.

    For 1964 (oldest yearbook I have is the '65)

    Total hours - 162,808,312
    Average publishers - 1,001,870
    Monthly average hours per publisher - 13.5

    ---------------

    For 1970

    Total hours - 267,581,120
    Average publishers - 1,384,782
    Monthly average hours per publisher - 16.1

    ----------------

    For 1980

    Total hours - 339,427,608
    Average publishers - 2,175,403
    Monthly average hours per publisher - 13.0

    ----------------

    For 1990

    Total hours - 895,229,424
    Average publishers - 3,624,773
    Monthly average hours per publisher - 20.6 (!!!)

    ----------------

    For 2000

    Total hours - 1,171,270,425
    Average publishers - 5,783,003
    Monthly average hours per publisher - 16.9

    ----------------

    For 2010

    Total hours - 1,604,764,248
    Average publishers - 7,224,930
    Monthly average hours per publisher - 18.5

    -----------------

    For 2012 (most recent year for which stats are available)

    Total hours - 1,748,697,447
    Average publishers - 7,538,994
    Monthly average hours per publisher - 19.3

    -----------------

    I present the figures only. Conclusions must be yours.

  • obfuscatetheobvious
    obfuscatetheobvious

    I hope that this post is not to far off topic. A fellow fader in my area and I have been wondering about the new FDS belief, the mediator belief, etc. The common thought here is that is that it is a power grab, will alienate any who have it brought to their attention, that it will lead to an exodus etc. I can see that point of veiw.

    I wonder whether this conclusion is reached because it comes from the premise that the GB is trying to keep their grip on power, bad motives, wicked mind control cult and so on.

    So together we tried to approach it from the other angle. What if the GB are trying to move doctrine to a more mainstream Christian view one that could easily be accepted by Christians of any other church?

    The argument goes that the GB saw the increase in emblem partakers (particularly newer recruits that feel anointed because of their previous religious experiences) and realised that should the numbers keep growing they might face a forced change of doctrine (mediator/anointed) by sheer weight of numbers (thanks to the old doctrine that all anointed on earth are the FDS). So they consolidated power so that they could control the rate of change and so they didn't face a really damaging split.

    They would still have to make doctrine change though. But it could actually have a big upside.

    It is pretty clear that the mediator doctrine leaves a lot of people out in the cold. So the GB say that all witnesses are anointed. That fills a very big hole for christians (from what I've read on here and elsewhere) But if they change it, they need to change the 144,000 doctrine. No big deal, they could easily change the literal to figurative. Great crowd, they could say that the scripture says they are in heaven........and so on and so forth.

    When it is all said and done (maybe over a 5-7 year period?) you might be left with a religion that says all JW are anointed, with Christ as their personal mediator, no class distinctions but that God will make all things better (heaven or earth, almost irrelevant). They stick to no Trinity, no hell, stake not cross, no celebrations to provide the points of difference. High moral code to appeal to the judgmental :). Preaching work, love, unity etc as proof that they are the one true org. Move attention away from a definite end date/period. 1914/19 simply marks the beginning of Christ presence with overlapping generations, Big A at any time helping to keep people on their toes. These changes make them almost mainstream, will have enormous appeal to other Christians who may be dissatisfied, dissaffected with their current church.

    If the above senario took place, then the org could potentially have a massive explosion in numbers. Any thoughts?

    Note - I don't care either way, I'm just trying to challenge assumptions and look at things from different angles.

    PPS: My sincere apologies if this is too far off topic.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    You mean that they are doing fine without me??!! Damn them;) Thats inconcievable.

    S

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Steve earlier you said you "sharply disagree" with my views on JW growth. But we both agree JWs are not yet declining, and their growth has slowed down in recent years. I'm not sure how we even disagree.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Satanus, exactly, after me was supposed to be the flood. How is that even possible?

  • JakeM2012
    JakeM2012

    It is true, if your waiting for Witnesses to become like the Great Disappointment of 1843 and 1844 when followers of William Miller finally collapsed, don't hold your breath. It is also true that many of us have made a decision to leave the borg, and would like everyone to follow, for whatever reasons we individually have, and obviously there is no mass exodus.

    However, the Great Disappointment can give some insight into modern JW's. " The Great Disappointment is viewed by some scholars as an example of the psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance . [14] The theory was proposed by Leon Festinger to describe the formation of new beliefs and increased proselytizing in order to reduce the tension, or dissonance, that results from failed prophecies . [15] According to the theory, believers experienced tension following the failure of Jesus' reappearance in 1844, which led to a variety of new explanations. The various solutions form a part of the teachings of the different groups that outlived the disappointment." (Wikipedia, 2013) (I don't like to quote the Wiki, but it was convenient.)

    Every day in 1997 there are upward of 375,000 babies born a day,(1998,World Health Organization) compared to 250,000 more witnesses a year. I don't understand the claim that JW's are keeping up with world growth?

    Are there more witnesses today than 20 years ago?, sure, but that is not the total story. More pioneers, yes, although as noted the hours have been cut, and existing pioneers have pressure put on them to stay in the "full time service ranks" no matter what, even padding some time; many have learned also to work on the QuickBuild kingdom halls or other similar projects as part of their full time work. (I have a brother-in-law that will take the entire car group to a "bible" study and they all count the time.) Not theocratically legal, but he is an elder heavy in the circuit.

    The last convention I went to was in 2010, and the demographics at least for that convention were alarming. The "sea of gray" headedness (meaning old witnesses) was the predominant color of the entire crowd. With 1975, the organization did loose some members, some disgruntled and bitter stayed on. But what the org. had started was momentum of an accelerated growth not seen before. What JW's are experiencing now is the de-acceleration of the exponential growth, meaning the momentum is slowing, and eventually it will slow to a point in which the the organization will struggle with their high turnover rates combined with the deaths of the weighted elderly JW's compared to growth. The two statisical characteristics are working in opposite directions. So the question is "Are JW's in a recession, great recession, or depression, or as some claim an expansion"? Is the work of Jw's sustainable for numerical growth? I think not.

    I had a relative that left in the early 1980's say one that he didn't think that Jehovah's Witnesses was a religion that was meant or designed for people to stay active for more than 5 years. The WBTS knows how to bleed the life and money out of youths, and young families, and mature families and then leave them without help in there later years, oh, but WTBTS wants the inheritance from them. I don't think they really want the masses to stay in it longer than 5-10 years. Just get em when they are most productive workwise or financially.

    If you choose to remain longer than 5 years, WTBTS wants complete obedience and a keep your mouth shut attitude; they don't want experience of long time people in the truth to really recite the changes made in the last 20 years at a WT study(like last weeks lesson). Get the people when they are productive, guilt them into contributing time and money, and dump them when used up. This is why so many of us haven't had anyone call on us after we stopped turning in time.

    While it it cost over 5000 hours per publisher to bring in one convert, there is not too much to say to someone who has figured out the con, it is just better business to look for new "Marks". As far as an increase in Pioneers couldn't this be a sign of cognitive dissonance like experienced with the Millerites? It took decades for a ponzi scheme the size that Bernie Madoff created to burst, but when it did it was well known, just like the Millerites, in the Great Dissappointment.

    My mother who is a 3rd generation witness will turn 80 soon, and from what I get from her and the remaining siblings in, is that they have too much invested to quit now. Perhaps it is a thing of pride, they choose not to admit they are wrong. I know this was a hard nut for me to swollow. I don't think that Jw's will be wiped from the face of the earth anytime soon, but the religion as a whole is becoming more as an insignificant group of would be followers, of the greatest Ponzi scheme ever, with a born on date haunting the new GB.

    The heavies in the organization are either dead or near dead, (depending upon when you were in) and I have little faith they had anyone with leadership qualities for a sustainable turn around growth. Looking at the growth of new ones in the congregations (not born ins) I see a few, societally fringe people that don't fit in anywhere else, why not join Jw's they will take anyone! The days of big families coming in is over, and that was the key to growth, because there was also the peer pressure from family members to "keep on Keeping on".

  • integ
    integ

    A big reason many stay in is due to the disfellowshipping and shunning thing. Is it worth losing your family so you can make a defiant stance? In many...most cases no it is not.

    If they changed their stance on that and dropped the shunning then I guarantee you would see the numbers drop.

    The shunning doctrine is huge. It is reprehensible and morally wrong on so many levels yet it is an effective means of control.

    The internet makes sure that the real "truth" will always be available to those who have the guts to look for it and who truly want to know what the "truth" is.

  • integ
    integ

    Here's another thing. The JW's have no problem whatsoever with fabricating numbers. It's ok to lie. The truth is only for those who are "entitled" to it (according to their own writings). If it helps to serve theocratic purposes than it is perfectly allowable to lie.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Every day in 1997 there are upward of 375,000 babies born a day ,(1998,World Health Organization) compared to 250,000 more witnesses a year. I don't understand the claim that JW's are keeping up with world growth?

    It's simple, JWs are growing faster than world population, typically around 2% compared with 1% annually. If that trend were to continue indefinitely, eventually (within a few hundred years) everyone would be JWs. I am not saying that is at all likely to happen! I am just pointing out that JWs are growing faster than world population and that such a trend has a real impact over the long term.

    I don't know what you mean by saying the organisation doesn't want or need long term members. Who exactly are you imputing this motive to? I generally believe the leaders of the religion believe its the truth and want as many people to join and stay in the organisation as possible.

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