BOTR said-
You make many assumptions what Christians believe. People believe many forms of Christianity.
You didn't read many prior posts in this thread, for on this very page above, I responded to the claim of pigeonholing mrhhome:
Adam said- This may be a news-flash for you, but with 35,000 flavors of Xianity alone, there are plenty of pigeon holes to go around. In fact, given that many individuals in the same denomination may proclaim quite a divergence of beliefs, I'd say that it's more likely for there to be 7 billion concepts of God out there, which should tell you something: could it be that all these various images of God(s) are actually stemming from the images created in the minds of men? Ya' think?
So here's a tip: before accusing someone of pigeon-holing, you might want to read their carefully-word explanation of how the onus is on indivduals to explain what their beliefs are BEFORE proceeding, since it's impossible for me to assume anything about what a particular Xian believes, since it's such a hodge-podge of possibile beliefs that fly under the banner.
The believer has to TELL others what they believe, and just as above with myelaine, we need to carefully define words that are thrown around glibly without giving it a second-thought before proceeding much further. Eg, just last night, I was talking to someone who claimed to believe in the Trinity, but then he described beliefs that were more consistent with NOT believing in the Trinity. He actually held contradictory beliefs, since many believers don't even actually KNOW what they believe, since many have never given all that much thought about the implications until they're asked by someone who knows what the typical doctrinal belief actually is.
BOTR said- I find it a useful way to question existence. Christ is the norm for my culture. I am certain that other religions have their own paths to God. As I said, I have many questions. Christianity provides me a community where I can ask questions. All Christians are witnesses for Christ. It is not an exceptional statement.
Thanks for sharing those random observations, but I'm a bit confused: you list the benefits of claiming to believe, but you don't actually say if you believe in Gods and supernatural beings (simply asking questions is not a statement of belief)?
BOTR said- No, I did not see Jesus resurrected. I accept the stories on one level. Not everything must be viewed literally. People can pick and choose what to believe.
See, you prove the point I was making above, as how am I supposed to know what every Xianchooses to believe unless they say?
I choose to live an evidence-based life, where my beliefs FOLLOW the evidence, and as such, I cannot cherry-pick my evidence based on if it supports my pre-accepted beliefs: that's exactly what the WTBTS does by cherry-picking quotes.
That said, how do you deal with thinking that if Jesus wasn't resurrected LITERALLY (and then ascending after resurrection), it means you're resting hopes on Jesus serving as a personal savior when Jesus couldn't even get himself to Heaven? Then how could Jesus serve as a mediator for anyone else?
If you mean Jesus' resurrection is 'symbolic', I'd love to hear your explanation for the MEANING of the symbolism of the resurrection.
BOTR said- You are not the truth police, enforcing "atheism" on all. No one elected you.
It seems you're dealing with authoritarian issues, as if you feel the need to make such statements (you DO realize that's no different than a petulant child who sticks out their tongue and says, "you're not the boss over me!"). Why would you even feel the need to say that?
Does asking these types of questions make you uncomfortable?
Anyway, this site is read by lurking JWs (and ex-JWs) who ARE commonly prone to engaging in magical and superstitious thinking, believing they're entitled to dogmatically believe only what they personally want to believe, and let the facts be damned: that's a personality trait that makes them vulnerable to join into groups of like-minded thinkers. Now if you think their minds can be broken free by persisting in the same illogical thought patterns that led them to conclude that joining a cult was a good idea in the first place, then you and I fundamentally disagree. Breaking the cycle of the cult requires modification of dysfunctional thought patterns, which are part of the multi-factorial problem; part of the "cure" is to abandon magical wishful thinking to gain a new way of looking at reality.
YES, it's their right to "return to their own vomit", but it's often only a different flavor of the same nonsense they left behind with the JWs (eg we've seen the Brahma Kumaris cult recruiter recently on JWN).
BOTR said- The world does not have to be conquered by atheism. Other people have religious and associational rights. It is a personal decision. I am not stupid. Indeed, I have plenty of company. Respect is nice. Otherwise, I fail to see the difference between an atheist and a JW. Domination of someone else's belief appears to the same. It seems that we were so regimented as Witnesses and not allowed a personal thought that we overcompensate. A zealot is a zealot.
I'm guessing you're not a big fan of the saying, "better to ask questions that cannot be answered, than to have questions that cannot be asked"?
Anyway, I can't make anyone believe anything except by powers of reasoning: note that the JWs and Xians sell their schtick via powers of 'appeals to emotion'. Some people actually enjoy allowing their amygdala to run free and unfettered, allowing their emotional reactions to control their lives. So fine, cest la vie, but it carries the risk of handing over the reins of control to others, who can take advantage of it to play them like a fiddle: that point should be self-evident on an ex-JW board, I'd think?
BOTR said- I truly see no difference between AGuest's orders to obey her voices and attempts to pummel every Christian or any person of faith. Live and let live. It is one thing to argue for your position and another to accuse people of stupidity. I assure you that I am not stupid. It is my choice for myself.
And where does rationalism fit into that? So no respect for reality, i.e. what actually IS, vs what you'd LIKE to be true, BOTR? Somewhat surprising for a lawyer not to understand the concept of allowing the evidence to lead the conclusion?
Fact is, the ones who should be most concerned about what they believe are the individuals themselves; I'm pretty comfortable in my own head, and don't have an irrational fear of death, etc. I lost that when I committed to believing in "stuff" AFTER sufficient evidence was presented, and NOT BEFORE (frees up much space by not falling for conspiracy theories, UFOs, Bildenberg/9/11 plots, fairies, gods, demons, etc).
You may not realize that I wasn't in the JWs: unlike my sibs, I made a break from the group (father was an UBM) as a teen and got an education, instead of just knocking on doors as an unpaid volunteer of WTBTS. My siblings weren't so fortunate: they gave their lives to serving the JWs, in the name of chasing a New System pipe dream. Talk about wasted potential of lives, all based on believing in Jesus and Jehovah. THAT'S the cost of belief, and don't forget about the ever-mounting death toll caused by JWs who refuse blood transfusion.
NEVER forget that, as you're starting to come off as just another Xian apologetist who wants to believe what you want to believe, and damn the evidence, since it provides YOU with a serotonin high that makes you feel all warm and loved inside. Such beliefs come at an unknown and incalculable cost to society, so just remember: it's not all about YOU.
Adam
