Fallacies about Faith

by tec 340 Replies latest jw friends

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Defining concepts is important. Perfect justice always included mercy for me. I believe most jurors strive for perfect justice. What I found practicing law was that the quality of lawyers is very uneven in the real world A good lawyer makes a big difference. The other obvious part is access to funds and the ability to wait a long time for results from litigation. When I practiced corporate law, I would be so angry with the government lawyers. A few agencies were great. The rest were mediocre. No one seems to defend the interests of the American public very much. We stayed until 9 pm or 10 pm every night and often worked weekends. It was expected that you represent your client. Government lawyers line up at five to get their car rides home. There were some white knights with public interest groups. They had zeal. The legal arguments were a mess but the judges seemed happy that someone was stepping up.

    What is more there is no denying that racism plays a strong part in the American criminal justice system. Are Americans inherently more violent than other people? We have such huge percentages of persons (mostly minorities) in prison compared to other countries.

    I am a recreational Shakespeare reader. Wasn't Portia's big speech in The Merchant of Venice about mercy.

    We can look at the Witness world for perfect justice. One would hope the big J would be perfectly just. We can look and look and never find justice. This monster creator God makes humans. Our brains are not His brain. We have messy emotions. There is the dark side in every human. He does not like free will. Outside of the Bible, we can look at judicial councils where no due process exists. What is more about one half of Witnesses (though far more than 1/2 in numbers) have no responsible positions. We must submit to creatures with penises. It does not matter what our natural talents are. I used to say to my uncle that Jehovah should have created sisters mentally retarded b/c with high level mental retardation (sorry I forgot the pc term) we could clean house just fine.

    It is sad to look on and stand mute when you are just as talented. Where is any justice there?

    One would think it would be just to give notice that a suspected pedophile is active in the congregation. They can use the word beloved of TV news and politicians "alleged." The scriptural requirements of the two witness rule could be fulfilled by reasoning that the two witness rule's purpose is that unfound accusations do not warrant ruining someone's life. Acknowledging that social scientists have now done extensive research and found that pedophiles are likely to re-offend in horrific numbers and that small children do not lie would be an important step. The totality of circumstances could be examined. Frankly, just give notice all the time. Should children be sacrificed for the rights of an adult. Justice would be telling every elder to immediately notify the police, not Bethel. Elders are not prosecutors. The Witness judicial council is not a judicial function. They are elders, not judges. So many churches are sincerely playing catch up after the Roman Catholic debacle. Bishops are stating that they acted in good faith in the 1950s but research has proven those beliefs wrong.

    When my father was going to punish me by pulling me out of high school so he could obsessively watch me, the government protected me. I knew I could plead my case before a judge, if necessary. I was certain the judge would find for me. Students for a Democratic Society was active in my city. They were constantly trying to raise my class consciousness--unsuccessfully. Thanks to them I knew all the case law regarding student rights. The government protects children with blood transfusions, too. It stops parents from overreaching. The child can mature and make its own decisions. I never thought about this before but I saw justice. Perfect justice is a goal.

    Jehovah is not just. Suffering is not just. I hope Jesus is a step up.

    Let me add that St. Thomas has always been my favorite apostle for asking questions. Humans can strive for justice even if a portion of the populace believes in a vindictive God. The vindictiveness always repelled me.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Cofty didn't do that. He said that god cannot be both perfectly just and perfectly merciful. You are the one who decided what that must mean. And I still ask, whose god is cofty talking about? Is it Tec's god or some other god or all gods or what. - FHN

    Theists refequently talk about their god being both perfectly just and perfectly merciful. They are trying to describe a married bachelor.

    To be just, means to punish somebody in proportion to their crime, without fear or favour.

    To be merciful means to withhold or temper punishment.

    You can't do both.

    Some theists defend their vengeful god's intention to eternally punish non-believers by reminding us that as well as being loving, their god is also righteous.

    Again they are befuddled. If god is perfectly loving everything he does must be loving. He can't take of his "love hat" and put on his "smiting hat" when it suits him.

    As always theists reinterpret words to suit their immediate dilemma and reserve the right to change the meaning again in the next post.

  • KiddingMe
    KiddingMe

    Marked

  • caliber
    caliber

    'Perfect justice' implies rendering punishment in accord with prescribed legal procedure, with no room for lenience; 'perfect mercy' requires showing lenience from justice, so the two are fundamentally at odds.

    The contradictory nature depends on what is actually meant by the adjective "perfect": it's not contradictory, if it's only meant to imply that a "perfect balance" can be struck between justice and mercy. But on their own, 'perfect justice' and 'perfect mercy' are fundamentally incompatible. ~`Adamah

    Isn't that the final situation .. justice and mercy do not stand alone ? It is God's call " perfect balance" ?

    So it boils down to, does God have the moral right to make this call ? Are faith , hope and love in God warranted ?

    Where will we put our trust ?

    Psalms 103:10 says, "he (God) does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities

    I hope this may helps some to understand/see/consider that God is both just AND merciful. (in fact, justice without mercy, is not justice at all)~~ Tammy

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Wouldn't perfect mercy mean a suspended sentence for hitler?

    Apologies for playing the hitler card.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    This is it. I don't believe in original sin or that humans have iniquities. There is no proof for this assertion. We are not born to sin. Rather, we are human and born to a human state. Humans have a wide range of behavior. We are capable of sublime behavior and despicable behavior. The Old Testament God, Yahweh, measures us by a God standard. Well, what is good for God is good for me. I repudiate that God. You don't supposedly create flawed humans and hold them to a God standard. It is utterly ridiculous.

    I wonder where this notion that we are so flawed and need God to rescue us started. Do non Abrahmic religions have this concept of sin? How would a cultural anthropologist view this matter? Freud wrote about in Moses and Monotheism. Jehovah has no merit. I love fine art. When I encounter a truly great masterpiece, I get goose bumps and see the sublime in human activity. The Sistine Chapel, a unexpected encounter with a Vermeer. They bring tears of my eyes. Music is the same way. Well, definitely NOT hip hop for me. Humans do so much good. A good example that I lived through was the reaction to September 11th in New York. The bad was quite clear. Yet humans did heroic work to rescue victims. People organized to help in so many ways. Manhattan was so eerily quiet. I was in the hospital. Nurses quietly prepared to go downtown. Doctors, too. We consoled each other.

    Examing my own life, I do not have iniquities. Far from it. I am human and my behavior has a range. Society could do without these heavy handed statements in theology and the Old Testament. Science has improved the human condition. Great literature addresses it more satisfactorily than the Bible. What a piece of work is man! I often wonder why we adopt the standards of a ruling class from the Middle East without questioning if the beliefs are valid in our day. Something tells me that regular people did not view themselves as dirt. A ruling elite wrote this literature.

    The whole sacrifice aspect is crazy to me. What does blood spilled do? It is a very primitive belief. Our notions of God should change as civilization changes. I still cannot honestly believe that perfect justice is not an OT notion of a wrathful God. Justice recognizes mercy. Judges today consider extenuating cirumstances and social factors, such as the capacity in American jails. Social science plays a part. It is recognized that science proved that young people do not have good impulse control They lack mature brains. More and more young offenders are being diverted to rehab rather than prison. Again, this is nothing news. Portia from A Merchant from Venice delivered her famous mercy speech in Elizabethan times. An eye for an eye is disgusting. I never saw how Yahweh and Jesus could be combined in any meaningful way. The answer suggested is that Jewish beliefs about God changed from Genesis to Jesus. We don't know what Jews, in general, believed in ancient times. We have the writings of one class with a clea agenda. Maybe we should embrace the golden calf.

    I have nothing in common with fundamentalists. We believe in different Gods. Human nature is variable. It can be evil but it can also be sublime. We are animals. If anyone understands why we cling to these MIddle Eastern ancient beliefs, I am interested. There must be a plethora of articles and books concerning the subject. Also, let us be honest. European Christianity also adopted many pagan beliefs that predated Christianity.

  • PelicanBeach
    PelicanBeach

    God is a pragmatist. He sets a goal and takes practical action to achieve that goal. He does what it takes even though it ain't pretty.

    When it comes to God's dealings with people there is no such thing as "perfect" anything including justice and mercy. There is only God's intentions/goal and the methods he uses to produce that desired goal.

    This is why King David lived though he murdered and deserved death. The goal, the Davidic Kingdom and Christ's coming, were far more important than "perfect" justice at that particular time.

    Just my 2.

    Pelican

  • adamah
    adamah

    The typical response of God (and hence, believers) when challenged on anything questioning his judgment is that witnessed by Job: "Where were YOU when I....?, AKA "appeal to Divine Authority"

    The believer usually retreats to a position of, "But who are we, as mere mortals with our limited perspective, to question the wisdom of God...." AKA "appeal to ignorance".

    Take a look at the picture again:

    Lady Justice is blind-folded, which prevents her from basing her decision on outward appearances, but ONLY by relying on the competing claims (evidence) presented by each side in order to determine the verdict of the case (as reflected in the balancing scale with the two plates she's holding). But notice how Lady Mercy is NOT blind-folded, but is whispering into Lady Justice's ear in an attempt to bias the outcome.

    In modern legal systems, 'mercy' primarily enters the picture when it comes to sentencing AFTER the accused is found guilty (eg sentencing to life imprisonment vs death penalty would be considered showing mercy). HOWEVER, that situation doesn't apply to God, since the Bible doesn't paint a pictures of mortals being judged and sentenced to Heaven OR Hell as a reversible decision (eg being sent to Hell for 2 yrs, and then going to Heaven). So in the ONLY situation that most believers are concerned with (the eternal fate of their souls), there is NO scriptural justification for the possibility of mercy being shown, since the judgment stands for an eternity, is irreversible, and since the outcome is a binary (two-tailed: Heaven OR Hell) the punishment OR reward is already pre-determined. The justice doesn't ALLOW for mercy, since the punishment is pre-determined.

    That ONLY applies to Bible God: if you don't like it, feel free to dream up your own version of God, since many 'believers' do create God in their image.

    Besides, anyone who actually reads the Bible can see MANY examples where God isn't just or merciful, eg think of Abraham's appealing on behalf of the unknown righteous men of Sodom. Initially, God says he will spare Sodom if 50 righteous men can be found (never-mind the continuity error which completely blows later claims which appear in the Tanakh, pertaining to God's omniscient and omnipresent nature). Abraham bargains with God, and gets him to agree to spare the city if only 10 righteous men can be found.

    Think about it: suppose there were NINE (or even ONE) righteous men found in Sodom? Do you think they'd agree that Sodom's destruction at God's hand was "perfect justice" or "perfect mercy", since they were killed and their homes and businesses were destroyed despite their being righteous?

    The explanation of course is discussed in the article on Lot found on my blog: when the account was written, the Hebrews believed in the doctrine of shared communal righteousness and/or blame, where entire cities (and in fact, Nations!) were judged as a WHOLE: that's why Jesus later condemned entire towns which rejected his message (and even referred to Sodom when he condemned them).

    Only later did Xianity shift to the concept of INDIVIDUAL righteousness being measured when standing before God (which is actually a concept that was used in Egypt two millenia before, where mortals stood before Osiris after their death to have their hearts weighed individually).

    http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/weighing_of_the_heart.htm

    As usual, the Xian Bible "shot-guns" by making contradictory and competing claims, and then tells believers they're just too stoopid (sic) to figure it out, compared to God Almighty. Some actually believe it, and are dazzled by the BS.

    Xianity is a hodge-podge that only results from syncretism (blending) of prior religions: in regards to religion, there is nothing new under the Sun.

    Adam

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Welcome to the birth of a new religion.... all hail the prophet TEC and let us follow her as Tecanoonigans!

    All Tecanoonigans must wear a flower around their neck as displayed in the holy avatar of Tec.

    A servant of Tec, a servant of Christ!

    chim chimney, chim chim charoo

    Snare x

  • adamah
    adamah

    jgnat said-

    Wouldn't perfect mercy mean a suspended sentence for hitler? Apologies for playing the hitler card.

    If Hitler pulled a deathbed conversion and accepted Jesus as his personal savior, per Xian theology, he is in Heaven. Oh, all 6 million of the Jews he killed? They went to Hell, if they didn't similarly accept Jesus as their savior and messiah before their deaths.

    So Hitler's in good company in Heaven, since mass murderers Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer BOTH reportedly repented before their executions, so they should be in Heaven.

    Most Xians just don't want to think about the nonsense they spiel on about (and others demand tolerance of such irrationality), since it doesn't stand up to slightest bit of scrutiny; Xian theology actually describes absolutely perverse inverted justice (which they sweep under the rug by calling it "perfect").

    Don't piss on us and tell us it's raining: didn't we ALL have enough of that kind of nonsense of being lied to with the JWs? I guess not, since some still want to chase that comforting lie, despite the cost to society for their desire to cling to Bronze-Age mythology.

    Adam

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