Oklahoma beheading - Islam is a disease

by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult

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  tootired2care

  What are American values exactly? Can you point me to the official American values and who made them official? Not just the things that people say are American values but really have no basis for stating.

  Sure, let's start with the Declaration Of Indepence. Aside from the fact that some who helped to write it were hypocrites, do you agree with the founding principals contained there or not?

  According to the U.S. government I am an American citizen with the prefix of African. SO I guess that makes me an African American.

  This to me is silly, in this age we should not make separations about what our ancestry is, we should all just be Americans if we agree with the basic founding principals. If we don't, then why call ourselves Americans? For example, if a male immigrant doesn't believe that women should have freedom, and should be forced to wear a burka, why should that person be allowed to become an American citizen? Because obviously their value system will most likely never reconcile with the core American values.
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  JWdaughter

  Simon, I am Muslim. I am quite good at reading and I am writing this without any help. Not even spell check.

  Wow. Congratulations, many of you are now as educated in what the Quran teaches as you were educated in what the Bible said when you were a JW.
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  Qcmbr

  Why did you convert to Islam JWDaughter?
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  Simon

  Again, in case anyone still isn't clean on the analogy ... for the comparison to apply to 'being American' it would need the constitution to enshrine not only the right to kill certain other groups (let's use African Americans to keep with the KKK theme and for historical purposes to show how crazy it is) but the duty to kill them ... and also for people to have a choice of which nationality they wanted to be.

  Now, would moderate people proudly chose to be American if this were the case? Would they be 'real Americans' if they didn't follow the commandments that were part of chosing the nationality?

  Again, just to clarify so there is no misunderstanding - this is to show how people trying to twist my point about Islam into applying to being American does NOT work.
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  Separation of Powers

  Tragic.....Where is the UNIVERSAL CONDEMNATION of this act by Islamic leaders? Is there some type of unwritten understanding of reprisal if one condemns such an atrocity?
• 

  confusedandalone

  "This to me is silly, in this age we should not make separations about what our ancestry is,we should all just be Americans if we agree with the basic founding principals. If we don't then why call ourselves Americans?"

  You do realize that the government makes that designation. Why would you think it is silly to make sepoerations about what our ancestry is? I really hate to go down that rabbit whole but I have to ask.

  Sure let's start with the declaration of indepence. Aside from the fact that some who helped to write it were hypocrites, do you agree with the founding principals contained there.

  I suppose you could ask the same question of individuals in the Middle East that believe in the principles of Islam. I am sure there are many women who feel that the treatment they receive is just peachy. Personally I think the principles of Islam are disgusting as I do those of Christianity. How do I feel about the message of the declaration of Independence? It's wonderful. However the declaration of independence meant they were taking the freedom of the entire Native American population.
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  Simon

  Out of interest JWDaughter - how do you reconcile what the Quoran and leaders of Islam teach with the moral sense you clearly have? Is there an allowance to pick and chose which verses you consider holy commandments and which ones you do not?

  If they are not teaching Islam then are there attempts to educate people that what they claim to be from the Quoran is not from the Quoran?

  The problem many people, me included, have is that it appears to contain the hatred that their extremism is based on. Just like the extremism contained in the Old Testament - which is where the comparison with Christianity diverges slightly, because most Christians base their beliefs on the New Testament ... like Bible 2.0.

  And yes, when an ideology takes over and produces evil like extreme Christianity has at times then it should be condemned and people should not support it in any way shape or fashion, even if that is simply 'making up the numbers' but using the label.

  Whatever the history though, that is not the problem facing the world right now (including many muslim nations). Islam is a threat to it's own followers which is why I described it as a disease instead of Christianity (right now more of a non-malignent boil).
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  tootired2care

  You do realize that the government makes that designation. Why would you think it is silly to make sepoerations about what our ancestry is? I really hate to go down that rabbit whole but I have to ask.

  I do, and the government is dumb for doing this IMO. Why? because it really doesn't matter. We should be a society with core unifying values, or we are no society at all.

  I suppose you could ask the same question of individuals in the Middle East that believe in the principles of Islam.

  Well they can certainly stay there! The problem is they want to come here, and impose their twisted values on us, and chop their co-workers heads off, and blow up buildings, and people running marathons. The principals in the declararation of independence will always be superior in every way imaginable to dangerous religious texts such as the Qur'an.
• 

  Simon

  It's wonderful. However the declaration of independence meant they were taking the freedom of the entire Native American population.

  That's a good point. I don't think anyone can take the ideals expressed in the declaration of independence and fashion evil intent from them (lets agree to ignore the 2nd on the basis of changed technology).

  So if anyone used it to base extremism on they could be disowned by the people who believe in the real thing.

  BUT ... if it did contain commands to kill etc... then it would be much harder for 'moderate' believers to both believe in it and at the same time distance themselves from the people following it and that is what I think the problem is with the Quoran and following any religious book that's really espousing hatred and murder.

  Surely if it contained such commands then they people who chose to gloss over those parts could be accused of not being a real follower?

  I'm sure we all agree that whatever our differences, we're against enforced billeting of soldiers in private homes. Yay 3rd Amendment !
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  confusedandalone

  " The problem is they want to come here, and impose their twisted values on us, and chop their co-workers heads off. The principals in the declararation of independence will always be superior to irrelavant religious texts such as the Qur'an."

  Don't you think that the 95% of the world that France Portugal Britian The United States Italy Russia the Netherlands completely wreaked havoc on felt the same way? Most of the problems that exist in the middle east are because of American and British foreign p[olicy years ago. Had we applied the values of the DoI to other nations we would never be in a position where everyone wants to attack us.

  The DoI expresses one countries need to not be controlled by another and have another nations boot on their neck. To be able to believe and practice what they want as a sovereigm nation. Yet those same rights are not applied to anyone we come in contact with.

  The principles in the the DoI are no more valuable then those in the Quran if they are not applied fairly to everyone.