Top STUPID criticisms of the WTS (page 2)

OUTLAW

Hey larc,brain washing,heavy indoctrination.It sounds the same to me.In your opinion what is the difference,thanks...OUTLAW

ashitaka

Some of the formal rules of the JW org. stink.

I think that's an innocent enough statement.

BTW, the comment about cults if very good. I know that even some of my friends who are ex-jws(not of the internet kind) call it a cult. Still, it's probably just out of anger. They know it doesn't fit the textbook definition, they just call it that because it's easier than explaining all of the JWs negative attributes.

ashi

hillary_step

Hello JanH,

An well overdue post - thank you.

I wish to add two more to this list, though #2is more abstract in concept and thus likely to be thoroughly disagreed with by some..lol

1) Jehovah's Witnesses only practice 'conditional' love. - There is no such thing as unconditional love. All love is conditional. It is dependent on a persons behavior. We all set our own personal boundaries over which some form of behavior will not be tolerated. Even our closest companions cannot cross these boundaries. Murder, adultery, brutality may at the extreme of these boundaries, lying, unkindness, disloyalty at the other end. These are all conditions. Do not expect me to love you if you gossip and tell lies about melol

2) Jehovahs Witnesses are the problem. Jehovah's Witnesses as a group are the symptom, not the disease. They are just people who happened to become involved with an extremely high control group, of which the WTS are just one of many on this planet today, and among whom there have been thousands over the centuries. Against the backdrop religious history, even their grossest behavioral excesses are relatively benign.

Please understand, that I do not wish to diminish the agony that the WTS brings into peoples lives, but I am merely pointing out that attacking JW's as individuals is a relatively useless endeavor that will only feed the doctrines of 'exclusivity' and the comfort in isolated persecution that keeps the show on the road, and that perpetuates the myth of, 'We God - you Dead'.

The WTS, like the National Socialists, and the wood-rot Fascists that plagued this century at around the same time that it got its teeth, is kept afloat by about four dozen men. When the leaders are exposed, then the hurt will stop. It is that simple.

HS

Edited by - hillary_step on 25 June 2002 22:33:32

Farkel

Hillary,

: There is no such thing as unconditional love.

I respectfully disagree. Unconditional love defines God in the most noble sense, and it also defines a human father/mother in the most noble sense.

It's ok to love the doer and hate the deed, IMHO. That to me, is unconditional love.

Let's assume for example that Adoph Hitler was the way he was because his brain didn't fire properly due to 1) genetic defect, 2) bad nutrition 3) anything else beyond his control. Adolph displayed every symptom of the worst monster imaginable. But what if he couldn't help it? That is a distinct possibilty, is it not?

If you were God, and if my assumptions have merit, would you blame Adoph for what he could not help doing? Would you love the Adolph who could have been a totally different person if things not under his control were different? Would you love him anyway? If the answer is "yes," then you define my God.

Farkel

Edited by - Farkel on 25 June 2002 22:46:50

Marilyn

:::::::::::The JWs use brainwashing. Real brainwashing doesn't work. There is a sliding scale between gentle coercion and heavy indoctrination, and certainly the JWs are closer to the latter. People convert to the JWs for the same reason they convert to other religions; they are socially attracted to the group and gradually come to accept their practices and doctrines. I certainly agree that JWs use unethical practices to isolate its members from contrary ideas and particularly former members, but it has little to do with "brainwashing" a term that tends to bring up ideas of some near-magical procedure to render people into helpless robots.

Jan, I agree that brainwashing is not the right term. Though Joe Public doesn't appreciate the difference between brainwashing and mind control. The end result appears the same. A person who will let their child die for want of a life saving medical procedure doesn't present as rational to the outside world. I feel we don't fully understand the process that takes place when someone submits to a religion like the JWs. Recently I heard that hypnosis doesn't work unless you want it to. I think that is the same as joining a religion like the JWs. To me there seems to be some kind of hypnotic affect involved - but I am not well read on this subject. I do know that Witnesses use a process that is not particularly open and honest. They hide the unsavory aspects of church doctrine from new interest until they feel the person has sufficiently taken the bait and can be safely reeled in.

What's the difference between mind control and brainwashing. Isn't mind control just a new age term for brainwashing?

:::::::::The JWs are a Cult. The word "cult" has so many meanings it is totally meaningless.

So where's the harm in calling it a cult? Again Joe Public tends to believe that a religion that will let their children die for want of medical treatment is not exactly a run of the mill religion. I was slow to use the word cult but lately I've been using it and I feel it's reasonable. Although they seem vaguely respectable to the world, some of what they practise seems very cult like to me.

Thanx for a decent topic !!!!

Marilyn

larc

OUTLAW, Without going to textbooks or to a search on the computer, I will give my opinions of the differences. The term brain washing came out of the Korean war. It had to do with the treatment of soldiers living in prison camps in North Korea. The soldiers were exposed constantly to propoganda. They lived in severe deprivation. Their guards were trained in giving out small rewards for the admission of mistakes, and the admission that, perhaps the allies had made some mistakes. In other words, a massive effort was made to change their ideology. With all this intense effort, very few soldiers succumbed to it. By contrast, intense indoctrination has to do with presenting information of a certain kind to a person to get them to gradually accept certain beliefs and values. Intense indoctrination, if done properly and for the good of the person, is sometimes called good parenting. That is how I see the difference. Hillary, I agree with both of your additions. My only comment is on the second point. Many here blame JWs, elders, the leadership, etc. I think the blame should be put on the system. It is the system that affects their behaviour and the harm that they do, either individually or collectively.

OUTLAW

Hey larc,thanks bud...OUTLAW

Dutchie

The JW leaders are in it for the money. Let's face it, JW leaders live very simple lives compared to most religious leaders in the world. The corporation certainly need money to make their world go 'round, and have displayed greed in many cases that they well deserve to be called on, but anyone who asserts that the WTS leadership have money as their personal motivation overshoots the mark with a wide margin.

Its true, JanH, that the JW leaders do not consider the gathering of wealth in the same vein making as "normal" people might. They do not want to enrich themselves to show off ostentatiously by possessing opulent houses, cars, or to maintain a lavish lifestyle

However, the making of vast amounts of money is certainly a source of pride to them. The growth of the organization as a demonstration of their intelligence and leadership is equally important to them and they want to maintain the corporate status that they now enjoy. So while they may not be "in it for the money in ways that we can understand", the continual growth of the Watchtower Corporation/ with its accompanying wealth, is indeed important to them.

Marilyn

If we're being entirely reasonable then why is protection of child molesters in the Org given so much hype by exjws? We all know that the Organisation is not about protecting child molesters. This siutaiton has come about because of the rules and regulations set down by the Society with other transgressions in mind. They have not purposely set about to protect molesters. They're just been caught in their own red tape. Whilst its amusing to see them caught - every JW that I knew would have been horrified by child molestation.

Marilyn

Amazing

Hi JanH: I generally agree with your assessment of these issues. However:

I do believe that there is some evidence to show Russell was somewhat influenced by Freemasonery. I am against the extension of this into conspiracy theories.

The NWT is not as horrible as fundamentalists make it out to be, but it does have some serious errors as you noted. Much depends on one's level of expertise in Greek and Hebrew.

The GB is ostensibly not in it for the money, but as Ray Franz noted in his books, there is a certain quality of life-style the GB can afford, via the tax free indirect means of the position they hold and the extreme wealth at their command. It has to have some influence on them.

The JW are a somewhat moderate cult, and I believe that Hassan and Lifton help us identify the common characteristics of what we may term 'cults.' The "degree" of severity between what the JWs are and that of hignly dangerous groups like Heaven's Gate, or Jim Jones, and others, is what causes the waters to appear muddy. The word 'cult' is like the word 'weed' ... for there is no scientific definition for a weed, other than they are plants we do not like ... but we know one when we see one.

I also agree that JWs are not brainwashed, but that indcotrination and mind-control in a heavily controlled sub-culture are better ways to phrase things, and these characteristics are what help define them as a 'weed' group.

I am sure there are other erroneous criticisms of the JWs, but I think that you hit the major ones.

Edited by - Amazing on 25 June 2002 23:6:22

Top STUPID criticisms of the WTS

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