by JanH 95 Replies latest jw friends
Horrified by molestation, yes, but still defending the WT's actions every step of the way.
My father was at a bookstudy last night (he was dragged there by my sister) and a person mentioned dateline and how untruthful they were in comparing the Witnesses to the Catholics!
Awwwwww, poor babies.
But, as my mom said, if the shoe fits.....
ashi
Great Thread Jan. These are my two faves from your list:
The JWs use brainwashing. Real brainwashing doesn't work. There is a sliding scale between gentle coercion and heavy indoctrination, and certainly the JWs are closer to the latter. People convert to the JWs for the same reason they convert to other religions; they are socially attracted to the group and gradually come to accept their practices and doctrines. I certainly agree that JWs use unethical practices to isolate its members from contrary ideas and particularly former members, but it has little to do with "brainwashing" a term that tends to bring up ideas of some near-magical procedure to render people into helpless robots.
The JWs are a Cult. The word "cult" has so many meanings it is totally meaningless. Genereally it is used to refer to any religion you don't personally like. In some circles, it is used to portray a group not adhering to Christian orthodoxy. Among scholars, it refers to a subset of religious practices within a religion (e.g. the RCC "Mary cult"). If you mean a group with a high level of control of its members, I suggest you say so, instead of using a word that is so misleading.
I will never forget meeting this woman one day out in field service. I was just a "normal" young teen girl...but this woman at the sight of me went white as a ghost and was terror-stricken by the fact i wuz at her door. I hadn't even spoken yet and she said in a shaky petrified voice thru the tiniest crack in the door "i think you are brainwashed and in a cult". Then she quickly shut her door. She was too scared even to have a discussion with me about why or whatever or to hear my response.
I felt sad for her. She was clearly brainwashed into being terrified of me and into believing i was a brainwashed cult member. She couldn't even converse with me without shaking in fear. It really didn't make her statement look rational.
Just about anything a person doesn't like could be made to look like a "cult",
especially with the wide array of "definitions" for the term.
In my experience, angry people will say anything about anyone or thing they hate.
It's too bad, cuz they may be truly justified for being angry on some real point...
but using "bandwagon" criticisms like this makes them look irrational and hysterical,
and detracts from the legitimacy of their genuine "beefs".
SPAZ
ps - hillary_step....yes i agree with you that all love is conditional in one way or another.
that is another very good one.
Great Post, as usual JanH.
I really like that you look at things with an open mind with reguard to the WTS. I agree with all of your points except where you think that the word "cult" is an inappropriate term. I think it fits like a glove.
From Dictionary.com:
5 entries found for cult.
| cult Pronunciation Key (k n.
|
Edited by - lastcall on 25 June 2002 23:33:32
Hello Farkel,
Let's assume for example that Adoph Hitler was the way he was because his brain didn't fire properly due to 1) genetic defect, 2) bad nutrition 3) anything else beyond his control. Adolph displayed every symptom of the worst monster imaginable. But what if he couldn't help it? That is a distinct possibilty, is it not?
It is a distinct possibility and this possibility I understand, just as I understand that some adults have a propensity to want to develop sexual friendships with young children. but I do not love them and when the fruits of their behavior become even more apparent, then I love them even less. That their behavoir may be due to some sort of emotional or mental abberation may require my understanding, but it does not require my love as my love has boundaries and conditions attached to it. After all, I could say to Adolph Hitler, I love you without condition because I understand that you may have some personality defect not of your own making, but please when you come to tea with my Jewish neighbours try to be nice. Even then, conditions have been set.
Even from the theological standpoint of Christianity, the God that the Bible describes as 'Love", shows a conditional love. Obey him, he loves and nutures, disobey him and eventually he will execute you. If unconditional love exists, I have yet to see it.
Best to you Farkel - HS
Edited by - hillary_step on 25 June 2002 23:40:47
I think the blame should be put on the system. It is the system that affects their behaviour and the harm that they do, either individually or collectively.
Agreed Larc. Often though the leadership is the system. I have seen enough of the WTS leadership in action to know that though totally convinced that they are being used exclusively by God, they are also cognizant of the effect that their actions have on their adherents, for better and worse. Those close to them, in positions of secondary splendour, are even more aware in many cases of the wrongness of what they do, yet they too knowingly proceed without caution. As such I view them as the problem, not the ones that they then influence. It is a complex issue which I know we share many more points of agreement on than disagreement Larc.
One thing is certain, it is threads like this that make this Board worthwhile imho.
Best regards - HS
Edited by - hillary_step on 25 June 2002 23:38:58
Wow, never thought I'd agree with JanH but this is good stuff. In addition to Jan and Hillary's items one thing that chaps my nether regions is "The Watchtower Wanted My Daugter, Wife, Son, Great Dane, etc. To Die!" statements.
Hi Jan,
I like your posts. I don't particularly agree with this one.
The evidence of Russell's connection to the Freemasons: on the covers of his publications. Russell's publications displayed emblems such as the Masonic "cross and crown" , the Knights of Malta symbol, and the winged-sun-disc. All of these emblems have deep roots in Freemasonry. This curious association is intriguing. It makes one wonder what influence this may have had on his thinking.
I also believe that the Witnesses are a cult that uses brainwashing techniques. The website Ex-Cult.org has an interesting list of identification marks to check for in a possible cult. Click here. What organization that you know of fits this criteria almost to a tee?
My favorite "STUPID criticisms" of the Witnesses are "They don't believe in Jesus" and "They don't go to the doctor".
Edited by - professor on 26 June 2002 1:39:30
As was already said, thanks for a thread that was long overdue.
Unless we hold to a high degree of accuracy and reasonableness we will keep shooting ourselves in the feet.
Path
Duthie, How do you know they have vaste wealth? I would maintain that they are just getting by. Here's why. (1) If they had excess cash and invested it in the stock market, their liquid assets have dropped in value. (2) Their printing operation is based on revenue growth and they are not growing. (3) They have increased inefficiencies in production. This is because they have high turnover among unskilled, uneducated production workers. They do not have the ability to become more efficient in a high tech world. That is why they are outsourcing some of their printing and some of their food producton for their workers. Amazing, I don't put much stock in the authors you mentioned. They have an axe to grind. When I read the definitions of Sociologists, the JWs fit the definition of a sect and/or a high control religion, not a cult. Lastcall, the dictionary definition you provide is inadequate. It puts religion, sect, and cult in the same basket. Sociologists make a distinction between denominations, sects, and cults. These distinctions have more validity than the general dictionary definition.
::::::::::::(1) If they had excess cash and invested it in the stock market, their liquid assets have dropped in value. (2) Their printing operation is based on revenue growth and they are not growing. (3) They have increased inefficiencies in production.
Yes larc, but they didn't join the stock market 5 yrs ago. They've been in it for the long haul - in which case they will have done terribly well. Then there is property. Their property holdings would be enormous. What's the site in Brooklyn worth? I've lived in Hong Kong on and off since 1985 and I went to visit the District Overbeer just after I moved to HK. That was 1985 - my dub father had had a massive heart attack and I went to get permission to visit him? (not a cult?). Well let me tell you, the house (Bethel house) he lives in in Ede Road, Kowloon Tong (no. 6 if memory serves me correctly) is worth an absolutely fortune. And it's clearly been in their possession for many, many years - bought when property in HK was a steal. It's almost impossible to put a price on the value of it now, but it's choice realestate and probably worth $100,000.000HK dollars. (divide by 7.7 for US dollars). That's just little ol' Hong Kong. A place my brother referred to as 'tin pot place' when the DO gave me permission to visit my father. You can be sure that the Society bought into the best areas in cities all over the world, and in the earlier part of last century. Property alone makes them worth a bundle. Not that I think they are in it for the money. But they don't exactly throw money around to look after people who've served them well. They hang on to it as if they were in it for the money. No different to any other religion.
Marilyn
