by BoogerMan 92 Replies latest watchtower bible
The book of Daniel is about one thing and that is God's kingdom.
A trite Watch Tower Society lie (but inherited from its Protestant origins). The entire book of Daniel mentions a future kingdom of God only 2 times, and 7 of the 12 chapters don’t mention God’s kingdom at all.
Scholar, let me get this straight. You believe 607 BCE to be the date for the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of the people? I gather this would happen at the start of Nebuchadnezzar's rule. So Jerusalem and surroundings would be desolate for seventy years. Afterwards the Jews would be freed by Cyrus, to be back in Jerusalem by 537 BCE.
12 And in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, that is, [in] the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadrezzar, the king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard, who was standing before the king of Babylon, came into Jerusalem. 13 And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah and the house of the king and all the houses of Jerusalem; and every great house he burned with fire. 14 And all the walls of Jerusalem, round about, all the military forces of the Chaldeans that were with the chief of the bodyguard pulled down.
27 And these the king of Babylon proceeded to strike down and to put them to death in Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah went into exile from off its soil. 28 These are the people whom Nebuchadrezzar took into exile, in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Judahites. 29 In the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls. 30 In the twenty-third year of Nebuchadrezzar, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard took Judahites into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls. All the souls were four thousand and six hundred. (Jer. 52:12-14, 27-30)
So how is it that Nebuchadnezzar could exile people from Jerusalem in his 18th year and destroy Jerusalem in his 19th year? According to Watchtower theology, Jerusalem had already been destroyed in 607 BCE. As I said, this is impossible.
Now let’s look at it from a secular chronology perspective. Nebuchadnezzar became king in 605 BCE. In his 19th year he destroyed Jerusalem and took the majority of the people into exile.
That means 605 – 19 = 586 BCE (give or take a few months).
And according to the Israelite kings: First year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 608 (Sept–Oct) to Elul 607 (Aug–Sept). Third year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 606 (Sept–Oct) to last of Elul, 605 (Oct 6). Next followed Jehoiachin’s appointment, lasting only three months. Nebuchadrezzar, in his 8th year, would take 800 into exile, including Jehoiachin.
Zed·e·kiʹah was 21 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 11 years in Jerusalem. It was because of Jehovah’s anger that these things took place in Jerusalem and in Judah, until he cast them out of his sight. And Zed·e·kiʹah rebelled against the king of Babylon. In the ninth year of Zed·e·kiʹah’s reign, in the tenth month, on the tenth day of the month, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came with all his army against Jerusalem. They camped against it and built a siege wall all around it. And the city was under siege until the 11th year of King Zed·e·kiʹah (2 Chron. 36:5-20).
Again: 608 – 11 – 11 = 586 BCE (give or take a few months).
In all that I posted already, the WTS acknowledges:
1. That Assyria ended as the second world power in the 17th year of Nabopolassar's kingship when Harran fell in 609.
2. That Babylon became the third world power until 539 when it fell, and Medo-Persia became the fourth world power.
Nabopolassar's 17th year 609 until 539 with the death of Belshazzar is when Babylon was the 3rd world power for 70 years, its greatest domination period. Although 7 different kings ruled during those 70 years, it was considered as 'one king' while it was the 3rd world power.
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[Insight- Particularly was this domination manifest during the seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E. when Nabopolassar, a native of Chaldea, and his successors, Nebuchadnezzar II, Evil-merodach (Awil-Marduk), Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and Belshazzar, ruled the Third World Power, Babylon. That dynasty came to its end when “Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed.”]
Nabopolasar (626-605) = 21 years >>>17th year 609 Harran fell beginning the domination period for Babylon as the 3rd world power.
Nebuchadnezzar (605-562) = 43 years
Awil-Marduk (562 -560) = 2 years
Neriglissar (560- 556) = 4 years
Labashi-Marduk (556-556) 9 months
Nabonidus/Belshazzar (556 - 539) =17 years
[Isaiah’s Prophecy - True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire— He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination— Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]
[w53 7/15 -The rulers of Egypt were cruel, wicked men and greatly oppressed the people. Their government, which became the first world power, was a complete and miserable failure. It was conquered by Assyria, the second world power, likewise under the influence of Satan.]
[Insight - The Babylonian Chronicle B.M. (British Museum) 21901 recounts the fall of Nineveh, the capital of Assyria...This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (609 B.C.E.): “In the month Duuzu, Ashuruballit, king of Assyria, and a large army of Egypt who had come to his aid crossed the river Euphrates and marched on to conquer Harran.” Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.]
[w65 6/1 - Babylon succeeded Assyria as the Third World Power.]
[Insight - By now the Medes and Persians under command of Cyrus the Great were on the march to take over control of Babylonia and become the fourth world power. During the night of October 5, 539 B.C.E. (Gregorian calendar), Babylon was seized, and Belshazzar was slain.]
Jeffro
A trite Watch Tower Society lie (but inherited from its Protestant origins). The entire book of Daniel mentions a future kingdom of God only 2 times, and 7 of the 12 chapters don’t mention God’s kingdom at all.
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False. The book of Daniel is about God's sovereignty expressed by God;s Kingdom as recognized by other theologians and scholars.
scholar JW
Jeffro
Of course not. Daniel isn’t a historical account. You do not understand what the book is actually about.
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The book of Daniel is history and prophecy as shown by the many regnal details throughout the book.
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And the Watch Tower Society acknowledges the relative timing of the siege on Tyre (though it erroneously claims it was against the mainland city, which was actually Ushu).
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Some time after' is the expression used as there are no specific details as to when Neb besieged Tyre so its anyone's guess.
scholar JW
Vidqun
Scholar, let me get this straight. You believe 607 BCE to be the date for the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of the people? I gather this would happen at the start of Nebuchadnezzar's rule. So Jerusalem and surroundings would be desolate for seventy years. Afterwards the Jews would be freed by Cyrus, to be back in Jerusalem by 537 BCE.
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No. The exile, servitude to Babylon and the desolation of the Land al are elements of the 70 years and could only have begun as one singular event which began in Neb's 18/19th with the Fall of Jerusalem.It could not have begun any earlier as those primary elements did not exist for the land was occupied and the Jerusalem and its Temple had not been destroyed.
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So how is it that Nebuchadnezzar could exile people from Jerusalem in his 18th year and destroy Jerusalem in his 19th year? According to Watchtower theology, Jerusalem had already been destroyed in 607 BCE. As I said, this is impossible.
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The most likely explanation is that the two different dating formulas simply represent the fact that reigns consisted of both regnal and accession years which was the common practice in the ancient world.
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Now let’s look at it from a secular chronology perspective. Nebuchadnezzar became king in 605 BCE. In his 19th year he destroyed Jerusalem and took the majority of the people into exile.
That means 605 – 19 = 586 BCE (give or take a few months).
And according to the Israelite kings: First year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 608 (Sept–Oct) to Elul 607 (Aug–Sept). Third year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 606 (Sept–Oct) to last of Elul, 605 (Oct 6). Next followed Jehoiachin’s appointment, lasting only three months. Nebuchadrezzar, in his 8th year, would take 800 into exile, including Jehoiachin.
Zed·e·kiʹah was 21 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 11 years in Jerusalem. It was because of Jehovah’s anger that these things took place in Jerusalem and in Judah, until he cast them out of his sight. And Zed·e·kiʹah rebelled against the king of Babylon. In the ninth year of Zed·e·kiʹah’s reign, in the tenth month, on the tenth day of the month, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came with all his army against Jerusalem. They camped against it and built a siege wall all around it. And the city was under siege until the 11th year of King Zed·e·kiʹah (2 Chron. 36:5-20).
Again: 608 – 11 – 11 = 586 BCE (give or take a few months).
Two things here. First, your methodology does not account for the historical 70 years which would properly fix the beginning of Neb's reign as it ignores the gap of 20 years between secular and Bible chronology and second, scholar notes that you prefer 586 rather than 587 which would upset Jeffro..
scholar JW
It’s hilarious how ‘scholar’ just puts his fingers in his ears and ignores any attempt of dealing with actual material presented.
Jeffro
It’s hilarious how ‘scholar’ just puts his fingers in his ears and ignores any attempt of dealing with actual material presented.
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The jokes on you for the said scholar is no joker.
scholar JW
So the angel of Jehovah answered and said, O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years? (Zech. 1:12)
20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah's word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. (2 Chr. 36:20, 21)
Scholar, there's your answer. The denouncement would start with Jehoiakim. He started off as a vassal of Egypt, but would then serve Nebuchadnezzar for three years. In 605 BCE crown prince Nebuchadnezzar would defeat the Egyptians. Shortly afterwards he would be made king, after the death of his father, Nabopolasar. During his accession year, during the days of Jehoiakim, he would start the deportation of Judahites, the first deportation of many. Here youths, sons of nobles and royalty, would be deported (Dan. 1:1, 3; cf. 2 Kings 20:18). The nations, including the Judahites, would serve the Babylonians seventy years. Their servitude would already have started in 608/607 BCE, during the reign of Jehoiakim (cf. 2 Kings 24:1, 2). That fulfills the denouncement of 70 years. Note, the land would pay off its Sabbaths, but it would not necessarily lay desolate for seventy years.
puts his fingers in his ears
No, I don't think he can to that because his head is up his ass.
ignores any attempt of dealing with actual material presented.
This is so.
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Anyway, even though he can't dispute what I have shown, I am curious to what the following looks like.
[dp -Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned for 43 years, headed a dynasty that ruled over the Babylonian Empire. It included his son-in-law Nabonidus and his oldest son, Evil-merodach. That dynasty continued for 43 more years, until the death of Nabonidus’ son Belshazzar, in 539 B.C.E.]
43+43=86+539=625-43=582
So, WTS claims Neb reigned 625-582. That makes sense because his true years of rule were 605-562, but they add 20 magical years to those years.
Going by their years:
Neb>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jehoiakim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>629 1st year (true year 609)
625 1st year>>>> 4th year (true year 605)
618 7th year>>>>11th year (true year 598)
617 8th year>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jehoiachin (true year 597)>>>Zedekiah (true year 597)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>608 9th year of Zed (true year 588)
607 18th year
606 19th year>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>11th year of Zed (true year 586)
602 23rd year
580>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>37th year of Jehoiachin (true year 560)
