Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Sea Breeze

  I think the problem is that people are revealed by their words and actions. If we assume that these descriptions of total depravity in people are true, we are left with a God who showed incredible patience, love and forbearance in order for some to be saved, although his desire is for all to be saved.

  People state they only want good outcomes, but a very large number of people are willing to suffer endlessly in order to avoid God. What does this tell us about people? If we accept every premise about the nature of man's inability to live with God, much less love him, we are obviously left with a universe where suffering is understandably far more common than happiness.

  What does this tell us about the being who created the universe and everything in it? It tells us that while we were all sinners and deserving only of death and eternal separation from God, He so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  Halcon is right. It is an amazing opportunity to even have the option to choose.
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  TonusOH

  Halcon: Apparently we must choose a side.

  What is gained by allowing us to choose? Why would he create a universe where there are two choices, when one of those choices leads to endless suffering?

  In a universe where there is no choice, everyone is happy forever. In the universe that he designed and created, millons --if not billions-- of souls will suffer forever. In the universe that he designed and created, there will always be suffering. Always. This is the universe that he chose to create.
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  Halcon

  In the universe that he designed and created, millons --if not billions-- of souls will suffer forever. In the universe that he designed and created, there will always be suffering. Always. This is the universe that he chose to create.

  You are completely correct. But what can anyone do about it? Neither you nor I would be the first to have objected to God's rules
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  TonusOH

  Halcon: But what can anyone do about it?

  Exactly. The Christian god is a being with the power to have created a universe where everyone enjoyed comfort, happiness, and bliss from beginning to end. But he instead chose to create one full of suffering, one where a great many people have suffered, and where many more will suffer for all eternity, with no respite. A universe where even he suffered-- an experience that was wholly unnecessary and only possible because he arranged it himself.

  The Christian god, as described, is a being who likes suffering. Who revels in it. Think about the requirements for being allowed into heaven. How many of those involve suffering, in some form or another? Those who do not suffer enough in life will suffer endlessly in the afterlife. I have to wonder if heaven is anything like what we imagine it to be. What would heaven be, for a being who is so utterly enthralled by suffering?
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  Halcon

  I have to wonder if heaven is anything like what we imagine it to be. What would heaven be, for a being who is so utterly enthralled by suffering?

  I've yet to read a scripture where heaven is described as anything similar to suffering.
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  Sea Breeze

  I've yet to read a scripture where heaven is described as anything similar to suffering.

  Halcon,

  TonusOH has aquired what the bible describes as a reprobate mind. It is a mind that no longer functions as intended. No matter what is offered by God to eliminate suffering, no matter how free it is, no matter how simple it is, the reprobate mind will ALWAYS miss the point.
  
  A world where it pain and suffering is eliminated is exactly what God is offering. But, TonusOH claims to want an existence where suffering is impossible, regardless of our choices.
  
  Soem people are born without the ability to feel pain.

  Irt is a miserable exisstence. Yet, this is TonusOH brilliant idea for the solution to evil, pain & suffering.
  
  Ignorant childish dreams.
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  TonusOH

  Halcon: I've yet to read a scripture where heaven is described as anything similar to suffering.

  Sounds like scripture is at odds with the way god is described, then. This, also, is a problem with the Abrahamic god and the religions spawned from belief in it. A god whose nature is contradictory and for whom the supporting text is also inconsistent is unlikely to be real.

  These inconsistencies and contradictions would be much more concerning if this god was real. Any possible explanation for those inconsistencies leads us down a dark road, and the understanding that we are this being's helpless playthings should terrify us. We try to paper over those concerns by insisting that he is nothing like this, which sounds a lot like what an abuse victim would say about her abuser.

  I don't deny the possibility that a god (or gods) may exist, as this is something impossible to disprove. But I think many gods can be easily dismissed because they don't make sense.
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  Halcon

  Sounds like scripture is at odds with the way god is described, then. This, also, is a problem with the Abrahamic god and the religions spawned from belief in it. A god whose nature is contradictory and for whom the supporting text is also inconsistent is unlikely to be real.

  Are you sure about this?

  God offered Adam either reward or punishment.

  In Exodus you can read all about God's long list of blessings versus curses for the Israelites. The emphasis on the rewards in heaven's kingdom are further emphasized in books like 2nd Samuel and Isaiah.

  And everyone here is familiar with Jesus speaking of entering heaven or being condemned to the lake of fire. To finish I can say Revelation and that would be enough.

  From beginning to end, God offers reward or punishment.
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  TonusOH

  Halcon: From beginning to end, God offers reward or punishment.

  Had he wished, he could have only offered reward. Not only does he offer punishment, he offers punishment that will never end. He will keep you alive after death in order to make sure you keep being punished. He understood that this would happen, and he chose to create that universe anyway.

  This would be consistent, if he was defined as a sadist. But he is defined as moral, merciful, good, kind, loving, and so on. He is defined as wishing for all to be saved and enjoy eternal bliss. This definition is in direct contrast with the actions he is purported to have taken and the universe he is believed to have designed. That does not make sense.
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  Halcon

  This would be consistent, if he was defined as a sadist. But he is defined as moral, merciful, good, kind, loving, and so on. He is defined as wishing for all to be saved and enjoy eternal bliss. This definition is in direct contrast with the actions he is purported to have taken and the universe he is believed to have designed. That does not make sense.

  But how does God define himself?

  And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

  The last part of verse 7, from Exodus, describes God as being very decisive and intentional in executing punishment.

  Maybe the issue is man's defining of God, and not God's own definition of himself.