Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  raymond frantz

  @Earnest

  So what if there was no mention for the first 200 years? The Church was under persecution for the first 200 years so Christian writing was sparse or lost for example Eusebius quotes or references numerous early Christian writings that are now lost, such as those of Hegesippus and Papias.He includes imperial edicts, letters, and church council documents which are now lost. Are all those documents in question now 2000 years later that some Jewish, Christian hating, so called historians want us to question everything about our faith? Many biographies or historical accounts were written hundreds of years after the events, we don't question them we accept them as history recorded, but when it comes to Christianity all bets are off🤣🤣🤣
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  Vidqun

  Raymond, I’m with you. Eusebius was a respected Church historian. Why would he lie?

  such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now (Matt. 24:21 ESV)
  as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now (Mark 13:19 ESV)

  Vanderhoven, I find it hard to fit above words to the siege of Jerusalem. Since the beginning of the world we have seen the destruction of the dinosaurs, the flood, Pompei and many more major catastrophes. According to Zionist propaganda the Jews have lost over 6 million in the holocaust. I do find it ironic that theologians, zealous to preach and teach, then have the temerity to chop and change meanings of words and sentences to fit their theology.
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  Earnest

  raymond frantz : Are all those documents in question now 2000 years later that some Jewish, Christian hating, so called historians want us to question everything about our faith?

  "Christian hating". Really? "so called historian". Really? You are throwing around a lot of emotive words about something that has nothing to do with faith. We are not talking about the words of Jesus, but about a fourth century historian. And Jonathan Bourgel is an historian whose PhD was on The Jewish Christians of Judea from the Great Revolt (66-73 CE) until the Bar Kokhba War (132-135/6 CE). He knows what he is talking about.

  Further, there are a number of scholars who question the historicity of what Eusebius wrote :

  G. Strecker, Das Judenchristentum in den Pseudo-Klementinen, (1958; 2nd ed. rev; Berlin: Akademie-Verlag, 1981) 229–231; J. Munck, Jewish-Christianity in Post-Apostolic Times,” New Testament Studies 6 (1959–60), 103–104; L. Gaston, No stone on Another: Studies in the Signiicance of the Fall of Jerusalem in the Synoptic Gospels, (Leiden: E. J. Brill 1970), 142 n. 3; G. Lüdemann, The Successors of pre-70 Jerusalem Christianity: A Critical Evaluation of the Pella-Tradition in "Jewish and Christian Self-Definition", (edited by E. P. Sanders. Philadelphia, PA: Fortress Press 1980), vol. 1 161–173; J. Verheyden, The Flight of the Christians to Pella, Ephemerides Theologicae Lovanienses, vol. 66 Issue 4 (1990), 368–384.

  Are they all Christian-hating, so-called historians? Not only that, but if you had bothered to read what Jonathan Bourgel wrote, you would have seen that he doesn't rubbish Eusebius, but says (p.111) "we tend to uphold the reliability of Eusebius’ statement, even though we suspect him to have altered the chronology of the Jewish-Christians’ flight for his own purposes".

  Vidqun : Eusebius was a respected Church historian. Why would he lie?

  It is not a case of him lying, but of embroidering a kernel of truth for apologetic purposes. Eusebius does not say who/what his source was so it is left to speculation. Quite likely some Jerusalem Christians did end up in Pella either before or during the war, and this was embellished to "something that had been commanded by a revelation" which involved the whole church.
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  Vidqun

  Perhaps you all are underestimating the the intelligence of first century Christians in Jerusalem. If one reads the following, what conclusion should you reach?

  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22, 24 ESV)

  If I was in Jerusalem and I read that, I would get the hell out of Dodge. It would be the most natural thing to do.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Vidqun

  The context of the GT leads to the destruction of the temple and the subsequent dispersal of the survivors.

  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22, 24 ESV)

  This is exactly what happened to the survivors of the great tribulation. They were to be enslaved and dispersed among the nations where they have been for the last 1900+ years. This is not scheduled to happen again at or after the parousia.
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  Touchofgrey

  The consensus of biblical scholars is that the gospels were written around the time of and after the destruction of Jerusalem, mark around 70ce and Matthew and Luke about ten years later, so they are not books of prophecy ,so the unknown authors just recorded events that had already taken place.
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  raymond frantz

  No Earnest, I dismiss all those who try to say whether they have a PHD or not ,that they know better from the historians that lived nearer at the time of the event. All these experts sprang up the past 100-150 years and surprisingly they have the same agenda , to dismiss historical events and their validity ,the things that Christians have believed in the past 2000 years. Yes there has been an orchestrated effort to take over the academic community and "experts " that discredit Christianity and its history to be promoted over others who don't push this agenda. Surprisingly this kind of agenda benefits only the traditional haters of Christianity who believe that Jesus is currently in hell eating excrement
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  Duran

  This is exactly what happened to the survivors of the great tribulation. They were to be enslaved and dispersed among the nations where they have been for the last 1900+ years. This is not scheduled to happen again at or after the parousia.

  What/when is the so-called 'parousia'?

  Who are enslaved currently among the nations that can't return back to Isreal now if they wanted to?

  You are saying Luke 21:24 happen already and is not said to happen again...what about this...Rev 11:2;13:5,7,10?

  Has Joel ever been fulfilled? Joel 2:17;3:1,2
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  Vanderhoven7

  @ Duran

  What/when is the so-called 'parousia'?

  Only God knows that. Our job is to be ready for the second coming of the Son.

  Who are enslaved currently among the nations that can't return back to Israel now if they wanted to?

  Who said anything about what Jew are experiencing today? I said the surviving Jews, when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, were dispersed as slaves among the nations. Jews are all over the world today and only granted a country in 1948 which has nothing to do with Matthew 24 or Luke 21:21-22. A similar enslavement and disbursement among the nations is not scheduled to happen again after the parousia.

  Has Joel ever been fulfilled? Joel 2:17;3:1,2

  Yes. In the events leading to and including those occurring in 70 AD. Acts 2:16-21
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  Duran

  Only God knows that. Our job is to be ready for the second coming of the Son.

  I am not asking as it pertains to the whole day and hour thing...I just want to know from you if you know from the Scriptures when his second coming is said to take place?

  Who said anything about what Jew are experiencing today?

  You did when you said:

  They were to be enslaved and dispersed among the nations where they have been for the last 1900+ years.

  ----------------------

  Yes. In the events leading to and including those occurring in 70 AD.

  So, you are claiming this has been fulfilled:

  [17 Between the porch and the altar Let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say: ‘Do feel pity, O Jehovah, for your people; Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, Letting the nations rule over them. Why should the peoples say, “Where is their God?”’3 “For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather together all the nationsAnd bring them down to the Valley of Je·hoshʹa·phat. I will enter into judgment with them there In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations, And they divided up my land among themselves.]

  Jews are all over the world today and only granted a country in 1948

  Any so-called Jews that are all over the world today, is due to their own doing, by them not returning in 1948 nor any time since.

  A similar enslavement and disbursement among the nations is not scheduled to happen again after the parousia.

  Correct, no enslavement occurs after Jesus' second coming. It takes place before he comes.

  It is your claim that that enslavement started in 70ce and has continued for 1900+ years with the Jews being all over the world. But you have stated that they could return in 1948. So that means they are no longer enslaved among the nations after 1948. (70 to1948 = 1878 years of enslavement)

  Where do you place Rev 11:2;13:5,7,10 as taking place...before 1948 or after?