Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Duran

  The Scriptures inform us of judgment to come.... So when can we expect His judgment to commence?

  As shown in the Scriptures above, 1 Peter 4:17 shows there are two judgments to come. The first being the judgement on what is said to be the 'house of God' (the world). In that case, God uses the 8th king to carry it out. His rule comes upon the whole world and results in bringing about two groups. Those (weeds) that support the 8th king, thereby reject God/Jesus (apostasy) and those (fine seed/wheat) that reject the 8th king in support of God/Jesus. Those that reject the 8th king will have GT during that period. These are God's/Jesus' true people who will be enduring faithfully waiting for Jesus to come to deliver/recuse them from the 8th king's rule.

  When Jesus does come after that appointed 42-month period of GT, then the 8th king and all that supported him will receive their judgment of death/killed off. All that rejected the 8th king will be the GC and those that rule with Jesus. (The sun, moon, star event occurs at the point between the 8th king's rule ending and Jesus coming. The two groups seeing that sign react in two ways based on who they supported during the 8th king rule.)

  [17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?]

  (During the appointed time is when they who are rejecting the 8th king will be suffering tribulation but then get relief. Then the outcome for those that support the 8th king will result in their destruction.)

  [7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

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  Yes, I believe the parousia will occur, hopefully soon, when Christ will judge the world and separate the wheat from the chaff.

  The so-called 'parousia' is the same as Jesus' 'second coming' and does not take place until after the 8th king rule.

  As already said above...the 8th king is the means by which the world is judged to start. The wheat and chaff are separated first by their own choice on who they choose to support, God/Jesus or the 8th king. Then when Jesus comes after the 8th king rule, he will do away with those that chose the 8th king as well as the 8th king himself.
• 

  Vidqun

  Duran, I cannot agree with your mixing and matching the scriptures of Revelation. I see the history of God's people during the tribulation somewhat differently. For me the beasts represent governing entities, same as in Daniel.

  10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.
  

  11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.
  

  12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
  

  13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. (Rev. 17:10-13 ESV)

  And for the life of me I cannot discover the "judgement" of the 8th king. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the scripture you are referring to. I am more interested in God's judgment against His enemies, e.g., the beasts and Babylon the Great (cf. Rev. 17:14; 19:20). In any case, Babylon is devastated by the horns, i.e., the ten kings (17:12, 16). God will judge the remainder of Satan's cohorts by means of His Son, not the 8th king (19:11-13). I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against. The latter will receive an adverse judgment. They will be destroyed (19:15).
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Vidqun

  Oops...I forgot to answer your first question. There are essentially four views on Revelation. Idealist, Historist, Preterist or Partial Preterist and Futurist.

  Idealists look for the lessons being taught, while historists trace the chronological events of history from the first century to the culmination. Preterists see everything in Revelation as fulfilled in century one, while Partial preterists, like myself, tend to relegate most of Revelation to the first century.

  Preterists and Partial Preterists opt for the early writing of Revelation usually early 60s, giving warning of God's judgments coming and the Great Tribulation Christians would experience throughout the Roman Empire under the various emperors. This Tribulation would include the Jewish Wars that Jesus informed Christians to escape from as God's wrath was to be released upon the nation.
• 

  Duran

  And for the life of me I cannot discover the "judgement" of the 8th king. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the scripture you are referring to.

  Are you kidding me? Are you clicking on the hyperlinks? I always include Scriptures in whatever I say.

  What are you not understanding in regard to a judgment brought on by use of the 8th king?

  You say:

  I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against.

  How/when do you suppose these two groups come about if not by the 8th king?

  For me the beasts represent governing entities, same as in Daniel.

  What does that have to do with what I have said? I didn't say they were not.
• 

  Vidqun

  Duran, and that's my point. I'm looking for a scripture connecting the 8th king to a judgment period. Also you confuse the 8th king, "the beast that was and is not," i.e., beast from the abyss (17:8, 11) with beast from the sea (13:1, 2). The beasts take over rulership of the world. However, God has handed over judgment to His Son, not the 8th king. God's people will indeed be persecuted by the 8th king. Nothing to do with judgment. Jesus is the one to separate the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31, 32).

  Vanderhoven, I guess I'm a Partial Preterist, going up to Rev. 4:1 (cf. 1:19). From then on I am a Futurist all the way. I also subscribe to a late date for Revelation, one of the reasons being that John was exiled to Patmos. This was a favorite pastime of Domitian (81-96 CE), banishing Christian folk to Patmos. Nero killed Christians outright. Also the fact the earthly Jerusalem was not important anymore, being replaced by "heavenly Jerusalem" (cf. Hebr. 12:22), IMO would contribute to a post-70 CE date.
• 

  Duran

  I'm looking for a scripture connecting the 8th king to a judgment period. Also you confuse the 8th king, "the beast that was and is not," i.e., beast from the abyss (17:8, 11) with beast from the sea (13:1, 2).

  No there is no confusion about the two because they are one in the same.

  Putting the 8th king (beast from abyss) aside for the moment.

  The beast from the sea and the beast from the earth (false prophet) come to their end when Jesus comes. Also, at that time, all that took the MOTB, etc come to their end.

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>42 months>>>>>>>Jesus comes>>>>>>>

  In order for that to take place at that time, logically the 42 months of the sea beast has to take place where people are taking or refusing the MOTB, etc. This is whereby the use of this sea beast, the choice has to be made by all people, which they will be judged by, is to support the beast and reject God or worship God and reject the beast.

  If you support the beast (reject God), you will be among those that are killed and left as bird food when Jesus comes. If you reject the beast (worship God) you will undergo GT during that time under the sea beast 42 months, but you will end up part of the GC or one of the ones that rule with Jesus when he comes.

  Those 42 months under the sea beast serve as the judgment by God on his house to find who really are his people. Obviously, those who support the sea beast are not God's people and they will receive their judgment of death (being bird food) by Jesus when he comes.

  Those that refuse the sea beast, worshipping God instead, these are his people and are judged to receive their reward of life being part of the GC or ruling with Jesus.

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  The sea beast 'was' - gets a death-stroke/'is not' - then gets its death-stoke healed - at which point it is given authority for 42 months and those that follow/support the sea beast, their names are not in the book of life. Also, this sea beast and the kings of the earth come against Jesus and are killed by him, etc. (Revelation 13:3,5,8;19:19,20)

  >>>sea beast 'was'>>>is not>>healed given authority 42months>>Jesus comes>>>>

  Scarlet beast 'was' - goes into the abyss/'is not'- then comes out of the abyss - at which point the kings give their authority to it making it the 8th king and those that follow/support 8th king, their names are not in the book of life. Also, it and the kings come against Jesus and are killed by him, etc. (Revelation 17:8,11-14,17)

  >>>scarlet beast 'was'>>>is not>>comes out of abyss given authority>>Jesus comes>>>

  Right now, the sea/scarlet beast is in its was/is state as the 7th king. When it receives it death-stroke/goes into the abyss and then gets healed/comes out of the abyss, it will become the 8th king. Then it goes off into destruction/thrown into the fiery lake by Jesus. Revelation 17:11,14;19:19,20
• 

  Vidqun

  Yes, I can see now where you come from. First of all, the origin, appearance and activities of the two beasts differ. Definitely not the same beast:

  1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. (Rev. 13:1-3 ESV)

  3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit... (Rev. 17:3, 8 ESV)

  The latter beast does not receive a deathstroke. It's heads are intact. When the sea beast receives a mortal wound, it doesn't die, but recovers. So, "is not" does not fit this beast. "Is not," means it disappears from the scene, i.e., it died. How do we know it died? That's the place where Jesus found himself when he died (Romans 10:7; cf Ps. 106:26). As the NAB puts it: “The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer, and yet it will come again” (Rev 17:8a). Here it is "about to come up from the abyss." Next time it does come up from the abyss and goes into action, battling the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7, 8). This beast is identified as the 8th king (17:11).

  Last, but not least, all the days, times and weeks found in the books of Daniel and Revelation are connected to a half or full Heptad. Time, times and half a time = half heptad = 42 months = 1,260 days. Each time these are mentioned, it means unfinished business (Dan. 7:25; 9:27; 12:7; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5).
• 

  Duran

  Definitely not the same beast

  That is an absolutely ridiculous statement to make based on what I showed.

  If you follow backward what it says about the sea beast, from the timing of when and how it is thrown into the fiery lake, and those who are killed along with it at that time, you see that it comes to its end when Jesus comes (Armageddon). That means the 42-month authority given it, which during such time all people on earth have to either support it/take the MOTB or reject it/refuse the MOTB, this period would precede Jesus' coming, leading right into it.

  Given what authority is given to this sea beast during that time, and the judgment that is giving to those that take the MOTB (death) and those that refuse it (life as part of the GC or ruling with Jesus),

  tell me what role does the 8th king play???

  Is 8th king's time before the sea beast gets his 42 months or is it concurrent with???

  How/when does the 8th king come to his end???

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  Sea beast

  [5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

  [11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth,... 16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

  [9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.]

  [19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

  [4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

  [9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]
• 

  Vidqun

  Sea beast
  

  
  [5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

  Above are the actions of the sea beast. The rest is your mental construct of events. As previously discussed, the sea beast has 42 months to carry out the instructions of the Dragon, Satan the Devil (Rev. 13:5). Then beast from the earth comes on the scene (13:11). It exercises all the authority of the sea beast (13:12). Afterwards the sea beast disappears and an image is erected in its honor by beast from the earth (13:14). Beast from the earth is also allowed to give breath to the image, so the image becomes a beast in its own right (13:15). This new beast is called the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss). This is the beast that Jesus disposes of, alongside the false prophet (19:20). This construction of events follows the natural Revelation chronology (chapter 13 > chapter 17 > chapter 19). I will stick to these.
• 

  Duran

  The rest is your mental construct of events.

  LOL!

  Afterwards the sea beast disappears

  So, you believe that after the sea beast gets healed from is deathlike state and is then given 42 months to have authority over all people, it just disappears?

  The beast receiving the death-stroke is = to the time as the beast being in the abyss. It is the time that the beast 'is not'. It's due to the beast being healed from its death like state (in both cases) that people are said to be amazed, etc.. and the names of those are not written in the book of life. How likely is it that this is happening with two different beasts?

  
  

  and an image is erected in its honor by beast from the earth (13:14). Beast from the earth is also allowed to give breath to the image, so the image becomes a beast in its own right (13:15). This new beast is called the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss).

  You claim the image of the sea beast made by the earth beast is the scarlet beast (newly made image of sea beast). So how is this newly made image beast from the abyss, when/how did it go in after being created?

  Also, wasn't the scarlet beast already on scene back in John's time as Rome, the 'one is'?

  [ 3 And he carried me away in the power of the spirit into a wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. 9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.]

  This is the beast that Jesus disposes of, alongside the false prophet (19:20)

  Revelation 17:13,14;13:5;19:19,20

  That is correct, that is how that beast (scarlet beast as the 8th king) goes off into destruction. But that is also how the sea beast goes out. It never just disappeared after the 42 months. The sea beast is who is mentioned with the false prophet (earth beast). They are the 'both' that get thrown into the fiery lake. The image never replaces the sea beast, the image is in addition too.

  [3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.]

  [9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,]

  [19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]

  [ 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.]