Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Vidqun

  The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss (Rev. 17:8 NET)

  the beast that comes up from the abyss (Rev. 11:7 NET)

  Frederick Franz clung to the idea that beast coming up from the abyss (Rev. 11:7) in this one instance is the same as the sea beast (13:1). This he did "to prove" his theory that the two witnesses represent Rutherford and co. that were sent to jail during the First World War. As will be seen, he falls back to the Hebrew. Later on he declared the beast "about to come up from the abyss" (17:8) to be the UN.

  The “abyss” (Greek abyssos; Hebrew, tehohm’) refers symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2) In a literal sense, however, it can also refer to the vast sea. (Ps. 71:20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) The Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” Thus “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” can be identified with “the wild beast ascending out of the sea.” See Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand!, p. 167.

  NWT Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.

  NET Revelation 13:3 One of the beast's heads appeared to have been killed, but the lethal wound had been healed. And the whole world followed the beast in amazement

  "a head that seemed to be mortally wounded" Rev. 13:3 (BDAG). This beast remained alive. It was not in the abyss. By disappearing, it would be absorbed by the two new beasts, i.e., beast from the earth and beast from the abyss. I know it disappeared because Jesus deals with only two (not three) beasts at Armageddon.

  In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. The abyss can be favorably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). God allows the beast to come up out of the abyss (of inactivity) (Rev. 17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). This is also where Satan will be bound for a thousand years (20:1, 2).
• 

  Duran

  It appears you don't know what you believe/think/are saying.

  You said this to me:

  I'm looking for a scripture connecting the 8th king to a judgment period.

  God's people will indeed be persecuted by the 8th king.

  I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against. The latter will receive an adverse judgment. They will be destroyed

  To start, it is clear that I view the scarlet beast to be the 8th king, at the point the kings give their authority to it, which happens after it comes out of the abyss.

  Likewise, the sea beast I view to be the 8th king, at the point it is given authority for 42 months, which happens after it is healed.

  I think they are one in the same, just explained from two different ways, and details have to be added together to get full picture.

  That said, let's keep in mind what you said in the quotes above and add that you say the image that the earth beast makes is the scarlet beast which is the 8th king.

  Okay, let's 'disappear' the sea beast and just focus on your version of the 8th king.

  You said:

  This new beast is called the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss). This is the beast that Jesus disposes of, alongside the false prophet (19:20).

  So, you say your scarlet beast/8th king is who along with the earth beast/false prophet is thrown into the fiery lake.

  [20 And the [scarlet] wild beast [8th king] was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

  Let's now go back to your quotes above:

  God's people will indeed be persecuted by the 8th king

  What Scriptures in Rev can you cite to show that your scarlet/8th king will persecute God's people?

  I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against. The latter will receive an adverse judgment. They will be destroyed

  What Scriptures in Rev can you cite that will bring about these two groups?

  What Scriptures in Rev can you cite that shows the outcome for those that are for God?
• 

  Duran

  Hope you will answer the above 3 questions.

  _________________________

  Just want to add this here because I didn't have time to edit earlier...

  By disappearing, it would be absorbed by the two new beasts, i.e., beast from the earth and beast from the abyss. I know it disappeared because Jesus deals with only two (not three) beasts at Armageddon.

  Yes, you are correct, Jesus deals with only two then, not three. Which two?

  It is the earth and sea beast, not the earth and scarlet beast.

  [13 And it stood still on the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, but on its heads blasphemous names.3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, ]

  ____

  According to below, it is the 'beast' that the earth beast (false prophet) performed signs in front of is who gets thrown into the fiery lake with the earth beast (false prophet). According to the above, the earth beast (false prophet) has the sea beast in its sight and performs signs in front of it.

  _____

  [20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

  The Cult - Fire Woman HD
• 

  Vidqun

  I noticed it before. Why do you feel the urge to conclude your scriptural thoughts with a music video? Do you think it contributes to the discussion? How? A musical interlude (The Cult - Fire Woman, no less!) for emphasis? I think that is totally irreverant and unhinged!

  It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast

  Who is perfoming the signs, beast from the earth or the sea beast?

  As a reminder: All Scripture is inspired and beneficial. Ring a bell? Is there a reason why you are stuck on Revelation only? I thought the following would be obvious to all those reading the Bible. So let's go:

  What Scriptures can you cite to show that your scarlet/8th king will persecute God's people?

  And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally. (Dan. 7:25, 26 NWT)

  It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish. (Dan. 12:7 NWT)

  Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17 ESV)

  What Scriptures can you cite that will bring about these two groups?

  16 At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.

  18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him. (Mal. 3:16, 18 NWT)

  For God: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." (Rev. 7:3 ESV)

  Against: "For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty." (Rev. 16:14 ESV)

  What Scriptures can you cite that shows the outcome for those that are for God?

  "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands" (Rev. 7:9 ESV)

  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (Rev. 21:3 ESV)
• 

  Duran

  Who is perfoming the signs, beast from the earth or the sea beast?

  Are you seriously asking that? I clearly addressed that. According to Rev here It is the earth beast/false prophet that performs the signs in front/insight of the sea beast.

  Then according to Rev here the sea beast and the earth beast/false prophet gets thrown into the fiery lake.

  Is there a reason why you are stuck on Revelation only?

  I am not stuck there. I could gladly show the same by referring to the KOTN, MOL, small horn, KFIC, the Northerner, etc.

  You are the reason why it's necessary to focus on Rev right now, because you speak about the 8th king/scarlet beast and claim the sea beast is not the same and apparently don't think that the 42 months the sea beast is given is the GT/judgment/MOTB time.

  You should be able to show everything you claim just by using Rev and then you can show how others correspond with what you have shown in Rev.

  If you are trying to shy away from Rev, it is because you can't use it to back up what you claim.

  "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands" (Rev. 7:9 ESV)

  You cite that in regard to my question:

  [What Scriptures can you cite that shows the outcome for those that are for God?]

  Your reply was fine, but it lacks the context and that is that the great multitude, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, come out of the GT.

  So, the question here is, what/where in Rev is the GT that they come out of?

  Do you agree that the GT period that they come out of is Rev 13:5,7,10?

  And that during that time is when the choice has to be made to either worship God or the beast? (Rev 14:6,7,9-12)

  Then after that period the following takes place?

  Rev 19:19-21;20:4;7:9,13,14

  Why do you feel the urge to conclude your scriptural thoughts with a music video?

  LOL! Because 'I love music' and the way my mind/personality works, is when I hear or read certain things, I automictically hear a song in my head that I am reminded of. Writing/reading 'fiery lake', I heard Ian singing 'FIRE"! I post it at times just for the sake of adding something else to the replies, because I know that many here get over seeing fools like us go back and forth.

  The O'Jays - I Love Music (Official Soul Train Video)
• 

  Vidqun

  I do love music, but I do believe there’s a time and place for it. Even if you are inspired by it, why do you insist on sharing it? Back to the business at hand:

  So, the question here is, what/where in Rev is the GT that they come out of?

  I have created a little schema to explain my view. I got my inspiration from Daniel. I think we went over this before. Repetition for emphasis. Here I assume trumpet blast and plague are the same length, which might not necessarily be the case.

  
  

  Do you agree that the GT period that they come out of is Rev 13:5,7,10?

  No, this is where we differ. IMO this has happened already.

  And that during that time is when the choice has to be made to either worship God or the beast? (Rev 14:6,7,9-12)

  You can make that choice even now.

  Then after that period the following takes place?
  Rev 19:19-21;20:4;7:9,13,14

  Yes, I believe this to take place after the tribulation.
• 

  Duran

  No, this is where we differ. IMO this has happened already.

  If you think this already happen, then whom/when is the entity in the past that received 42 months to have authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation and was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them?

  You can make that choice even now.

  That is a ridiculous statement to make based on considering those Scriptures, which you obviously aren't. Is anyone currently or ever in the past having to choose between taking the MOTB/worshipping the beast or not?

  The Scriptures show that there is a precise point in time that due to the earth beast/false prophet, that the time will come to have to take the mark, etc. That is the choice that all will have to face and will judge who really are God's people or not. When do you say that time takes place? Rev

  Yes, I believe this to take place after the tribulation.

  (This goes along with what was just asked above.)

  Okay, so if takes place after the tribulation, and according to Rev 20:4 those that will rule with Jesus it is said that they 'had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand', where in Rev does it show the timing of when/how they were being forced to worship/take the MOTB,etc....

  When does this period of the MOTB occur so then after, this can be said, based on the choice one made during that MOTB period?
• 

  HereIam60

  In past decades wasn’t WT teaching that the “modern fulfillment” of this fleeing to the mountains was Fleeing ,to, taking refuge in God’s Kingdom - the Mountain of Jehovah (Micah 4 :1,2)..?
• 

  Vidqun

  HereIam60, I'm not sure what they taught originally. I have lost track of Watchtower interpretation. Perhaps Duran knows.

  Duran (I now know where you got your moniker from), I think I have identified your problem, why you want to sea the sea beast in Rev. 19. It boils down to the following:

  1) "And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast" (Rev. 13:14 NWT)

  "and, by the signs he was permitted to perform on behalf of the beast" (Rev. 13:14 NET)

  "the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs" (Rev. 19:20 NWT)

  "the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf–" (Rev. 19:20 NET)

  So which is it, "in sight of" or "on behalf of"? General consensus of the Dictionaries and Lexicons indicate the latter:

  by the authority of, on behalf of Rv 13:12, 14; 19:20. Also simply by Lk 3:7 D (but s. 2a).—Johannessohn, Präpositionen 194-97; 359-61; AWikenhauser, Ἐνώπιος--ἐνώπιον--κατενώπιον: BZ 8, 1910, 263-70.—DELG s.v. ἐνῶπα. M-M. (BDAG).

  by the authority of, on behalf of (RV 13.12, 14; 19.20) (Friberg).

  at the instance of anyone, by his power and authority: Rev. 13:12,14; 19:20 (Thayer).

  In Rev 13:12, 14; 19:20 ἐνώπιον τοῦ θηρίου ποιεῖν τι, do something "in the presence of the beast," is to be understood as "at the commissioning of the beast." (EDNT).

  2) "and, by the signs he was permitted to perform on behalf of the beast" (Rev. 13:14 NET)

  "the false prophet who had performed the signs" (Rev. 19:20 NET)

  What signs?

  13:14 = "even making fire come down from heaven" and "he deceived those who live on the earth" (Rev. 13:13, 14 NET)

  19:20 = "which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image" (Rev. 19:20 NET)

  Conclusion: The mark of the beast was introduced in the time of the new beast, and the new beast IMO is the scarlet beast (beast from the abyss).

  That's enough for the time being. I will answer above questions later.
• 

  Journeyman

  In past decades wasn’t WT teaching that the “modern fulfillment” of this fleeing to the mountains was Fleeing ,to, taking refuge in God’s Kingdom - the Mountain of Jehovah (Micah 4 :1,2)..?

  Yes,, I believe that's right.

  There are two types of reliance on "mountains" the WT org has mentioned. In both cases, "mountains" are claimed to be associated with earthly organisations. On the one hand, God's Kingdom - and the earthly expression of it in the form of the JW Org and its congregations - are seen by WT to be the "mountains" that "righteous ones" would flee to.

  In contrast, the "worldly ones" would call upon human "mountains" to try to protect them in the end - any sort of human organisations separated and alienated from God. Obviously, those "mountains" would not provide the needed protection. They use Revelation 6:15-17 for this:
  Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
  
  Isaiah 2:2 was also used to contrast these two types of mountains: "“And it must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains" God's organisation supposedly represented by JW Org becomes "established above" other organisations. One WT from the 1980s I just looked up said:
  "The symbolic mountain of Jehovah’s pure worship is becoming more prominent, so that meek persons can see how it contrasts with the sectarian “hills” and “mountains” of Satan’s permissive world. They “get out” of false religion and flee in growing numbers to Jehovah’s mountain of worship"

  That's how I've always understood the Org to interpret these verses and the symbolism of "mountains".

  It doesn't surprise me that they're "refining" this to increase emphasis on listening to and obeying the GB (to know which "mountains" to flee to), since that's the way everything is going now in their teaching.