Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Well, it looks like I gave some wrong impressions due to incorrect wording. Let me straighten that out.

  What I intended was...

  Jews who survived Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD were enslaved by the Romans and dispersed among the nations. Jews today (no doubt including some of their descendants) are still found in many nations.

  The enslavement and dispersion of Jews among the nations in 70 AD was the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy found in Luke 21:20-24 which reads.

  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22, 24 ESV)

  This prophecy was fulfilled and is not slated to happen again.

  Conclusion: The Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is prophecy fulfilled, i.e., over and done with.
• 

  Duran

  The enslavement and dispersion of Jews among the nations in 70 AD was the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy found in Luke 21:20-24
  This prophecy was fulfilled and is not slated to happen again.
  Conclusion: The Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is prophecy fulfilled, i.e., over and done with.

  [20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

  So, you are saying 'the appointed times of the nations' have ended/have been fulfilled?

  If they started in 70, when did they end?

  __________

  When did or does the following take place:

  [ 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]

  [ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
• 

  Vidqun

  Vanderhoven, the following passages have not been fulfilled in the first century. Note Joel and Acts mention the Day of the LORD, which is certainly future: "And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day." (Acts 2:19, 20 ESV)

  "When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." (Rev. 6:12-14 ESV)

  In addition, I see in various passages, directly or indirectly referring to the “great tribulation” and connected events (cf. Is. 2:10, 19, 21; 13:10, 11; Amos 8:9, 11, 12; Hag. 2:6; Hebr. 12:26-29). In addition, nearly two thirds of the book of Joel describes tribulation parallels (Joel, chapter 1&2). Approximately 13% of Jesus’ Olivet discourse comprises of information about the “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:15-28). Nearly a third of the book of Revelation (chapters 6-9, 11, 15, 16) deals exclusively with tribulation related developments. And as will be seen, prophetic chronology of both Daniel and Revelation points to important facets of the tribulation period (Dan. 8:11-14, 25; 12:1, 7, 11, 12; Rev. 11:2, 3).
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Yes, exactly.

  Times of the Gentiles:

  "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20, 24)

  The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the days of vengeance". In other words, it was God's mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem. This is consistent with past judgments upon Israel, when God brought Gentiles armies into their land to desolate it.

  The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem. The Greek for "trodden" is pat-eh'-o (#3961 in Strong's Concordance), and it means "to trample down underfoot". The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says:

  "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months."

  The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.
• 

  Duran

  The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the days of vengeance". In other words, it was God's mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem...The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War.

  Let's say 66ce-70ce was that 42-month period of Rev 11:2 and that is 'the time of the gentiles'. (Luke 21:24) You claim that period was the GT.

  Okay, how do you explain, that when Jesus is said to come, it is at a time when tribulation is occurring upon those that have faith in him, and they get relief from that Trib upon them when he arrives? (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

  If the GT was during 66-70ce and if all those that listened to Jesus' warning to flee, fled, then who are the chosen ones that were still in Jerusalem that on account of them the GT had to be cut short/limited to 42 months?

  And do you say that the GT mentioned in Rev 7, is the same period as 66ce-70ce GT or is it a different GT?

  Lastly, has this taking place yet?

  [ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Duran,

  Before I answer your questions, can you explain when and how the following will transpire?

  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. ....They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations (Luke 21:20, 24 ESV)
• 

  Duran

  can you explain when and how the following will transpire?

  Why do you need that from me to answer what I asked you. I agreed with you for arguments sake that that pertains to 66-70 period as you say. And in reality, it does, it just has a dual fulfillment, which you do not believe it does. You say that time was the time of the GT and will not be repeated, that no GT/captivity by the nations will happen again in the future.

  So, it is you that needs to explain the timing of Rev 13:5,7,10 -Rev 7:9,13,14 - 2 Thess 1:7-10...if they pertain to 66-70 period or a future time?
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Actually Duran, I don't have to explain anything about Revelation or Thessalonians. My claim is that the GT of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is fait accompli to which Luke 21:20,24 attests. Now if you can disprove this claim, or support a different future interpretation, I am all ears.
• 

  Duran

  Actually Duran, I don't have to explain anything about Revelation or Thessalonians. My claim is that the GT of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is fait accompli to which Luke 21:20,24 attests. Now if you can disprove this claim, or support a different future interpretation, I am all ears.

  LOL! You don't want to explain Rev and Thess because you know what they show.

  Nobody that believes the GT is future disagrees that there was fulfillment in 66-70ce, etc. But that does not mean that there is not a fuller far-reaching fulfillment of it.

  It is clear you have no clue what you are talking about.

  You said:

  Absolutely clear that the GB does not know how to interpret scripture. The GT of Matthew 24 occurred and terminated in the first century with the destruction of Jerusalem. The GT was a non-repeatable local event affecting "this people" inhabiting Judea and Jerusalem.
  To make it a dual prophecy, is to make Jesus speaking simultaneously, literally to His generation of believers and figuratively to ours.

  
  Context is everything

  
  The context of the GT leads to the destruction of the temple and the subsequent dispersal of the survivors.

  If you think the GT fulfillment was limited to the destruction of the temple, then when did this part get fulfilled:

  [14 “However, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains. 15 Let the man on the housetop not come down nor go inside to take anything out of his house; 16 and let the man in the field not return to the things behind to pick up his outer garment. 17 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 18 Keep praying that it may not occur in wintertime; 19 for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again....24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

  ______________________________________

  Who were the GC that came out of that GT:

  [9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  LOL! You don't want to explain Rev and Thess because you know what they show.

  Assume all you want Duran.

  If you think the GT fulfillment was limited to the destruction of the temple, then when did this part get fulfilled:

  24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.

  Let Marcellus Kik break this down a little.

  29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN:

  Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated. God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer shine for Israel of the flesh.

  QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?

  WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

  Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

  Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of Idumea, Isaiah writes: “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of such an insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

  Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt incorporates similar vivid language. “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt... And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used tobdescribe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel? Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

  OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO ISRAEL. Dan.7:13 says: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

  Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says: “And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64 Mat.16:28)

  No more temple, not one stone on another, no more priesthood, no more sacrifice, their house left to them desolate. They rejected their Messiah.