Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Duran

Why did you leave off verse 26...
[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.] cf. [ 25 “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]
Has Jesus arrived yet.... what tribulation does he give relief/deliverance from?
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Why do you not address who the GC is that comes out the GT in Rev 7?
Does the GC come out from 66-70 period or from Rev 13:5,7,10 period? (here)
Vanderhoven7

Hi Duran,
I prefaced my response by saying, let's break this down a little. Many don't appreciate long posts. And since I believe I have the truth on Matthew 24, I tend to stick to Matthew 24, it’s parallel texts and include the book of Daniel because it is referred to in Olivet discourse itself.
So let's look at Matthew 24:30 now.
30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (See Jer.21:5 Is.19:1)
Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.
AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.
Does the phrase "coming (not parousia) in the clouds" necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not read that thought into the text.
Is. 19:1 states "See the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it" Although this verse speaks of the Lord riding on a cloud and of His presence, we know that the Egyptians did not see the Lord in a personal and visible way. The expression is rather used to indicate a coming in judgment against Egypt. Jesus coming in the clouds against Israel thus refers to a similar kind of judgment.
The clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view. They were to see the Lord Jesus coming to judgment with power. This power was manifest in the destruction. The word glory refers to the visible display of his honor, power and majesty. That Jesus destroyed the city in 70 AD is accurate. As Daniel 9:27 reveals; because of the over spreading of abominations, he, the Lord and Messiah himself would make it desolate. Titus was merely his instrument.

Seems to me that Jesus word to the high priest was fulfilled in AD 70 as well.
Matthew 26:64 KJV — Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Vanderhoven7

@Duran and others
If one believes in the duel fulfillment theory we need to attempt to discover how things Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 apply and mean for us today.
Please attempt to answer:
1. What does the temple and temple stones stand for? What does not one left upon another mean?
2. What does Jerusalem, Judea, mountains, and this people stand for?
3. What does fleeing to the mountains stand for?
4. Does Sabbath mean Saturday? Why should we pray that our flight not be on a Saturday?
5. Does winter mean winter in Jamaica as well? Or does this prayer apply only to colder countries?
6. Should we carry an extra coat when we are fixing our roof?
7. When is the last time you prayed your flight will not be in winter, on a Sabbath or warned young women not to have babies?
All the things Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 came to pass upon His generation as did His woes to the Pharisees in Matthew 23.
Duran

If one believes in the duel fulfillment theory we need to attempt to discover how things Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 apply and mean for us today.
On the first page, I already addressed that, saying:
[It does have a future application according to the Bible. But the parts that you are referring to do not apply.] (here)
Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son of man visiting the earth.
First off, the 'sign' is the sun, moon, star event. It occurs just prior to his coming. Seeing that event, those having faith in him will stand up straight/lift their heads (rejoice) because they know that event is the sign they are about to get relief/deliverance from the TRIB that they are undergoing at that time living under the 8th king while refusing him.
In contrast, those that didn't have faith in him and went along with the 8th king, when they see that sign, they will be in fear because they know they are about to be killed off. (here)
Does the phrase "coming (not parousia) in the clouds" necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not read that thought into the text.
That has nothing to do with what we are talking about concerning the GT being a future event from 66-70. But for the record, his coming is the same as the so-called 'parousia'. That coming is his 'second coming'. (here)
________________
Put the above aside and tell me if the GC came out of the 66-70 period or do does the GC come out of a future GT that is said to occur? (here)
Vanderhoven7

Yes, as I understand the Olivet discourse, the GT Jesus spoke of was prophecy fulfilled in the first century.
Jesus answered essentially two questions. To paraphrase:
1.How will we know when will you come in judgment against Jerusalem? - covered in Matthew 24 verses 1-35
2. How will we know when will your coming (parousia) to judge the world at the end of time? - covered from verses 36 on.
No doubt the disciples conflated these two events. So Jesus separated them in all three accounts.
The primary judgment against those in Jerusalem and Judea was specific as to the sign to flee to avoid the GT
The second event (parousia) was unknown as to timing; no signs were provided for this, no fleeing necessary since they would be taken. It would occur in normal times, people marrying and working in mills etc.
Vanderhoven7

((On the first page, I already addressed that, saying: It does have a future application according to the Bible. But the parts that you are referring to do not apply.))
I don't see a basis for that conclusion in the text. Jesus said that all things stated would apply to the generation to which he was referring. Matthew 24:34
And clearly that generation was His own.
Duran

@Vanderhoven
Can you tell me if the GC mentioned in Rev 7, came out of the 66-70 GT period, or does the GC come out of 'another' said GT period?
If you say 'another', then when is that GT period to occur or has it already, if so, when?
[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]
Vanderhoven7

As I indicated, I don't need to get into the book of Revelation to interpret Matthew 24 and parallel passages. The important thing is to determine which generation Jesus was referring to that would experience the GT affecting those living in Judea and Jerusalem. SO the basic question is:
Which generation was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34?

The Greek word “genea” (pronounced ghen-eh-ah') appears thirteen times in Matthew's gospel. Four times it is used to delineate “one set of parents to the next”. Ignoring Matthew 24:34 for the moment, in every other appearance, including 6 of the instances Matthew places the definite article “this” (houtos) before “generation”, “this generation” (houtos genea), in context, clearly cover the same group of people -i.e. “Christ's contemporaries”

Mt 11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 12:42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ).

Mt 12:45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself.... That is the way it will also be with this evil generation ." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Reading Mt.23:36 in context again shows Christ contemporaries are being referred to:
29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
What generation was Jesus referring to Matthew 24:34?

Let me suggest to you that "this generation" in all 4 gospels refers singularly to Christ's contemporaries.
Duran

As I indicated, I don't need to get into the book of Revelation to interpret Matthew 24 and parallel passages.
I am not concerned about the need for you to continue to interpret Matt 24. I said, let's say that you are right about all you say in regard to the GT during 66-70.
I just want to know, do you believe the GC came out of the 66-70 GT period, or does the GC come out of 'another' said GT period? (Revelation 7:9,13,14)
If you say 'another', then when is that GT period to occur or has it already, if so, when?
Vanderhoven7

I'll leave Revelation to scholars Duran. But do you agree that this generation in the gospels is singularly about Christ's own generation?
Mat_11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mat_12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mar_13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luk_7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
Luk_11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
Luk_11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
Luk_11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Luk_11:32 The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk_11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Luk_16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Luk_17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk_21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Act_2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

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