The Holy Spirit... and DOES God Speak to Us?

by AGuest 128 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

Noko said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) * Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ was ever created. (End of Quote)
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Firstborn means a beginning or was created.)
I have posted on another Thread about what "Firstborn" means.
The word "Firstborn" definitely does not mean "First-Created". There was a different Greek word that means "First-Created", which was not used at Colossians 1:15.
The word "Firstborn" is also used in the Bible simply to mean "Pre-Eminent".
I'll try to comment more on this soon if you are interested in hearing more of my beliefs about Colossians 1:15.
Noko said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) * Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ is not God Almighty. (End of Quote)
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Jesus Christ shall be, future tense, not complete at time of writting, a Mighty God, that is less then Almighty the highest one can be.)
That is the same argument the Jehovah's Witnesses use. I admit that when you first read that argument, it sounds pretty good.
But then, if you go forward one Chapter in Isaiah, you will see that Jehovah Himself is called "Mighty God":
Isaiah 10:20: It shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and those who are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again lean on him who struck them, but shall lean on Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isaiah 10:21: A remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.
Not only that, but Jehovah is called "Mighty God" a few more times in the Old Testament:
Psalm 50:1: The Mighty God, Jehovah, has spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun to its going down.
Genesis 49:24: But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob (from the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel);
Jeremiah 32:18: You show loving-kindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them. The Great, the Mighty God, Jehovah of Hosts, is His Name,
So, let me ask you a question Noko -- when Isaiah 9:6 said that a Child would be born and would be called "Mighty God", who do you think the Jews thought of as "Mighty God"? The Jews obviously believed that Jehovah is the Mighty God.
My statement is true -- not one Verse in the Bible says that Jesus is NOT Almighty God.
Here are the Verses which show that Jesus is The Almighty God:
Revelation 1:7-8 says that The Almighty is The Alpha and The Omega:
Revelation 1:7-8: Behold, He comes with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 22:12-13 and 16 says that JESUS is The Alpha and The Omega:
Revelation 22:12-13: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. (Verse 16:) I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the Churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the Bright and Morning Star.
Noko said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) * Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ should not be worshiped as God. (End of Quote)
But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers.
That Verse does not say that Jesus should not be worshiped. That Verse says that The Father should be worshiped. I agree wholeheartedly with that.
The following Verses show that Jesus Christ should be worshiped equally with The Father by all:
Hebrews 1:6: But when He [The Father] again brings the Firstborn into the world, He [The Father] says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
John 9:35: Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and having found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"
John 9:36: He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"
John 9:37: And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is speaking with you."
John 9:38: Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshipped Him.
Matthew 14:33: Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."
Matthew 28:9: And as they were going to report to His disciples, that behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held His feet and worshipped Him.
Luke 24:51: And it happened, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and was carried up into Heaven.
Luke 24:52: And after they had worshipped Him, they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
Luke 24:53: and they were continually in the Temple praising and blessing God. Amen.
John 5:22: For the Father judges no one, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23: so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Revelation 5:6: And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as if slain, having Seven Horns and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5:7: Then He [the Lamb] came and took out of the right hand of Him [The Father] who sat on the throne.
Revelation 5:8: And when He [the Lamb] took the Scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls being filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 5:9: And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the Scroll, and to open its seals; because You were slain, and You redeemed us to God by Your Blood, out of every tribe and language and people and nation;
Revelation 5:10: and have made them kings and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth."
Revelation 5:11: Then I looked, and I heard as it were the voice of many angels around the throne, and the living beings, and the elders. And the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and a thousand thousands,
Revelation 5:12: saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive the power and the wealth and wisdom and strength, and honor and glory and blessing!"
Revelation 5:13: And every creature which is in Heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power to Him [The Father] who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever. Amen!"
Revelation 5:14: -and the four living beings said "Amen!" And the elders fell down and worshipped.
1 Timothy 1:16: However, because of this I was shown mercy, so that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, as a pattern for those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
1 Timothy 1:17: Now to the King of the Ages, Immortal, Invisible, The Only Wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:14: that you keep this Commandment without spot, blameless until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Timothy 6:15: which He will show in His own time, He who is the Blessed and Only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:16: who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or is able to see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
So, are all of those Verses false and incorrect and wrong?
Or, are we supposed to honor, praise, and worship Jesus Christ equally with The Father?
Also, it is important to notice that the Apostle Peter and holy angels REFUSE to receive worship -- why is that?
Acts 10:25: Now when it happened that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshipped him.
Acts 10:26: But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man."
Revelation 19:10: And I fell before his [the angel's] feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Revelation 22:8: And I, John, am the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I heard and when I saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing to me these things.
Revelation 22:9: Then he said to me, "See that you do not! For I am your fellow servant, and I am of your brothers the prophets, and of those who keep the Words of this Book. Worship God."
Noko said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) * Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. (End of Quote)
I havn't found it either, but then I wasn't looking to hard . Enough of that, lets move on.
I made that statement for the benefit of any Jehovah's Witnesses who might read this Thread. The JWs believe that Jesus is Michael.
Noko said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) The Father, The Son, and The Spirit created all things. (End of Quote)
Did the Father, The Son, and The Spirit create Evil, the Lie and Death? In other words is Jah the Father of the lie? Myself I would say no way. Now some Bibles do indeed say at Isa 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Now did the Father, The Son, and The Spirit create the Model T UnDisfellowshipped? or did Henry Ford? Then again if the Father, The Son, and The Sprirt created all things then any wrong must be their fault, right? Isn't that what you are saying even though you will deny it?
Well, when I say "God created all things", I mean all of the things He created in the beginning (Genesis Chapter 1 and 2), such as Heaven, Earth, the Universe, planets, stars, galaxies, humans, animals, angels, etc, etc.
As I said before, Jesus said that Satan was the originator of the lie, and because of that, he was also the originator of sin and death.
I'm not sure what to think of Isaiah 45:7 yet, because I have never studied that Verse. I'll check that Verse out and get back to you on that.
God did not create the Model T.
God created man with the brain that is capable of creating the Model T.
God created the earth and all of its things that are used in making products, including the Model T.
God [The Father, The Son, and The Spirit] is the Only One who can create things out of nothing. God is the Only One who can create life out of non-life.
Noko said:
Oh, UnDisfellowshipped who is the us in this statement found in Ge 1:26 God said, "Let us make man in our image, . . ."
Very Good question.
Genesis 1:26 and 27 reads:
Genesis 1:26-27: And God said, Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in His own Image, in the Image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
God said "let US make man in OUR IMAGE", then it says God made man in HIS IMAGE.
Therefore, there is an "Us" who make up the One God.
The "Us" is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, which is revealed in the New Testament.
Also, AGuest has said before that Jesus was NOT the Maker of Heaven and Earth.
If that is true, why then did God say "let US MAKE man"?
Noko said:
Well I have to go, sorry if I didn't answer any more questions, the one who truely answer questions is Christ.
I understand completely. I thank you for taking the time to reply.
You are 100% correct -- Christ is the One who answers all questions we have about Him, and Christ is the Answer.
plmkrzy

Schizophrenics specifically have grandiose ideas about themselves (talking to God or being God). I primarily think that she is a danger to herself because quite often the voices "turn on" the sufferer,
That could have easily been what happened to that poor Bryant family. Of course we don't know everything about it, none of us lived in the Bryant house. But if he went to the elders in his congregation and told them he was speaking personally to God and Christ and they were telling him what to do, I would bet money they were convinced he was possessed and probably even told him Satan was the one talking to him.
I could easily see that happening and if Bryant was in fact schizophrenic and they told him Satan was speaking to him and he should pray more to make it stop, then he was pretty much doomed and well on his way to self destruct.
12 men gathered around a possible schizophrenic and instead of helping him get proper medical attention, tell him that Satan the Devil is speaking to him and pretending to be God and Christ. Holy Crap! 12 men building a bomb.
This is how. If she puts a schizophrenic on medication, the voices will go away. If God is really talking to AGuest, then the voices will remain. This isn't 100% accurate, but if the voices go away after medication, then she most definitely wasn't talking to God. The door should be left open for this possibility.

Actually that might not be a good idea, especially if the voices are voices due to mental illness. If the voices remained after being on medication long enough and that is often the case, then that could perhaps cement her belief that these voices are truly inspired by god and that could be more dangerous especially if and when the voices began telling her to hurt herself. That is “if” she is suffering from schizophrenia, asking her to prove she is not isn't such a good idea, IMHO.

Personally I enjoy reading Aguests posts/Threads, for the most part. Sometimes I may read something she has written that causes sudden spontaneous facial reactions, but…whatever…
I still enjoy reading many of her posts. In the very least they have caused me to “think” more about what “I” am reading instead of how I have been taught to read. There is value in that alone.

DJ,
That is an AWESOME list of Scriptures proving beyond any shadow of doubt (to Bible-believers) that Jesus is God Almighty!

Buzzer sounding off #%&%#…wrong!
But it does prove beyond a shadow of any doubt that that is how you interpret scripture and that’s fine, however is does not prove it beyond a shadow of any doubt absolute. Sorry.
First of all one has to believe the Bible in the first place before your interpretation can even be considered at all.
Also, based on your interpretation, God would not be infinite but instead confined to the earth, the heavens and whatever man can muster up in his own imagination (seen and not seen) (the visible [things] and the invisible [things], whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities). Your interpretation would prove that God does not exist beyond our own imagination but is instead confined to it or in it.
If we believe that God exists and is infinite, no beginning, then how can we regard the Bible as something that could possibly or would even bother to cover things that are not even relevant to mankind, earth and heaven, visible thrones and rulers or invisible dominions and authorities “outside” what is pertinent to “our” existence?
Seriously, what does the planet earth look like from only the distance of the moon? Trying to visualize it from “Gods” view? Moreover, consider it a major player in “all things” within a realm that has no realm?
The Bible tells about “all things” that basically concern US. Our past present and future and what Gods relationship is with that. Well…that’s how I see it. In a nutshell, people make the mistake of making earth with mankind on it the center of Infiniti and forget just how small it really is.
If a sheet of typing paper represented infinity and we placed earth on it, what would it look like? Could we see or spot earth on the paper at all? Then if that is even possible, after you locate or spot earth, start counting all the people on it.

Now did the Father, The Son, and The Spirit create the Model T UnDisfellowshipped? or did Henry Ford?

LMAO! That was funny.
Plum J
noko
Hi UDF,
and greetings.
Firstborn
Hebrew
B@kowr (bek-ore'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 1060
firstborn, firstling
of men and women
of animals
noun of relation (fig.)
Greek
Prototokos (pro-tot-ok'-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Adjective, Strong #: 4416 the firstborn
of man or beast
of Christ, the first born of all creation
In any case UDF, Christ was born, had a beginning but is eternal. Now Christ or should I say the firstborn and only begotten son of Jah was not eternal, in that he gave up his spirit life to become death for us in the flesh to pay back the debt of sin brought about by our orginal father Adam. He paid back what was taken away by Satan from Jehovah. It is when Jah resurrected our Saviour is when he became the Firstborn of the new creation and also the Firstborn from the dead who will not die. Our Saviour had three births, first as a spirit (Jah as Father in the womb of Heaven) in which he died to come to us in the flesh (King David seed as his father and Mary his mother), which was his second birth and finally when Jah resurrected him from the dead (Born again from Jah), firstborn of the new creation, his third birth. In any case you have to admit his birth in flesh and then his subsequent birth from the dead, both where beginnings UDF.
Now getting back to the mighty almighty thingy. LOL .
UDF, you did forget one where mighty God is mentioned in the KJV that is, other translations have it in less:
1sa 4:8 Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.
Now UDF who are these mighty Gods??? Yes more then one God and mighty UDF. Are they also Jehovah or Jesus Christ?
This takes us to Ps 50.1 There is alot of variation with the rendering of the first verse as you can see and read here:
The God of gods, even the Lord, has sent out his voice, and the earth is full of fear; from the coming up of the sun to its going down.
In any case the word rendered mighty for KJV in Hebrew is different in Isa 9:6 and Ps 50.1. Now Ps 50:1 uses the word 'el (ale), while ISA 9:6 uses Gibbowr (ghib-bore'); These two words do mean different things and the rendering above of Ps 50:1 seems to be correct while the other Bibles render it incorrectly or at least differently.
Now only Jehovah is ever rendered Almighty while there are cases where he is given the Mighty God title in the Bible. Now you say:
Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ is not God Almighty.
You could also rephrase that to read:
Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. If so UDF, show us. The highest that Jesus Christ is rendered in the Bible is a Mighty God while Jehovah is referred to being Almighty numerous times.
The Alpha and Omega. I am the Alpha and Omega in my family to be called David (my name), I am the Alpha and Omega in my family to have been in the Navy as well. Alpha and Omega means first and last, first letter of Greek alphabit and last. Now only in Revelation is this saying used both by Jahovah and his Son, in any case just because I or anyone else can use this expression doesn't mean I am Jahovah or Jesus nor anyone else who uses it, does it? Now Jahovah is the first and last Almighty Re 1:8. Jesus Christ is the First and Last Saviour for us where we can receive the water of life Re 21:6 and through him the New Creation will be built Re 22:13. The old creation has a short period of time left, death will be no more afterwards.
Now about worship I may cover later, I've said enough and for those who are truely thirsty reach for the true drink, the everlasting drink which is given by our Lord, The Son Of Jahovah, Jesus Christ who has been revealed to his slave as JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.
UnDisfellowshipped

Noko,
Thanks for your reply.
You said that Jesus has had three births.
How many deaths has Jesus died? The Bible says Jesus died ONCE.
There is only ONE birth of Jesus mentioned in the Bible, and that is when He was born of the virgin Mary.
Also, in regards to "Firstborn", what do you believe these Verses mean?
Psalm 89:26-29: He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him forevermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure forever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Also, Noko, who were the people who talked about "Mighty Gods" in 1 Samuel 4:8?
1 Samuel 4:6-8: And when the Philistines heard the noise of the shout, they said, What meaneth the noise of this great shout in the camp of the Hebrews? And they understood that the ark of the LORD [Jehovah] was come into the camp. And the Philistines were afraid, for they said, God is come into the camp. And they said, Woe unto us! for there hath not been such a thing heretofore. Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.
They were Philistines! They were non-Jews -- they were heathens!
They did NOT believe in only One True God -- they believed in several false gods!
So, Noko, are you saying that I am supposed to believe what some Philistine heathen worshipers of false gods said?
To all true worshipers of the True God, there is only ONE who is truly a God at all by Nature -- and that is Jehovah (The Father, The Son, and The Spirit).
You did not comment on the following Verses and the connection between them:
Isaiah 9:6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 10:20-21: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD [Jehovah], the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
The same exact Hebrew words for "Mighty God" are used for Jehovah in Isaiah 10:20-21, and for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6.
So, there is absolutely no way that you can prove that by Jesus being called "Mighty God" that He is NOT Almighty.
Because, if you make that claim, then you are claiming that Jehovah is not Almighty, because Jehovah is called "Mighty God".
Noko, if you were to call yourself THE Alpha and THE Omega, you would be blaspheming.
If you were to call yourself THE First and THE Last, you would be blaspheming.
Also, Christ did not provide an "equal" ransom for Adam -- that is the false Jehovah's Witness teaching.
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus Christ provided an INFINITE Sacrifice which covers each and every person's sins who will ever live, if they believe in Jesus.
Noko said:
In any case the word rendered mighty for KJV in Hebrew is different in Isa 9:6 and Ps 50.1. Now Ps 50:1 uses the word 'el (ale), while ISA 9:6 uses Gibbowr (ghib-bore'); These two words do mean different things and the rendering above of Ps 50:1 seems to be correct while the other Bibles render it incorrectly or at least differently.
You are correct. I apologize for that. I did not check the Hebrew words before I posted those Verses.
However, Jehovah and Jesus are both called "Gibbowr God" in Isaiah.
Noko said:
Now only Jehovah is ever rendered Almighty while there are cases where he is given the Mighty God title in the Bible. Now you say:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ is not God Almighty. (End of Quote)
You could also rephrase that to read:
Not one Verse in the entire Bible says that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.
If so UDF, show us. The highest that Jesus Christ is rendered in the Bible is a Mighty God while Jehovah is referred to being Almighty numerous times.
I pray that you will see that Jesus is The Almighty from reading the following few Verses:
Romans 9:5: of whom are the fathers and from whom Christ came, according to the Flesh, He who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:16-17: However, because of this I was shown mercy, so that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, as a pattern for those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King of the Ages, Immortal, Invisible, the Only Wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:14-16: that you keep this Commandment without spot, blameless until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will show in His own time, He who is the Blessed and Only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or is able to see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
John 3:31: He who comes from above is above all; he who is from the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from Heaven is above all.
Why did John the Baptist say that Jesus was ABOVE ALL while He was on the earth as a Human?
Noko said:
The Alpha and Omega. I am the Alpha and Omega in my family to be called David (my name), I am the Alpha and Omega in my family to have been in the Navy as well. Alpha and Omega means first and last, first letter of Greek alphabit and last. Now only in Revelation is this saying used both by Jahovah and his Son, in any case just because I or anyone else can use this expression doesn't mean I am Jahovah or Jesus nor anyone else who uses it, does it? Now Jahovah is the first and last Almighty Re 1:8. Jesus Christ is the First and Last Saviour for us where we can receive the water of life Re 21:6 and through him the New Creation will be built Re 22:13. The old creation has a short period of time left, death will be no more afterwards.
So, you are saying that the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" means two entirely different things in Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13? On what basis?
Revelation 1:7: Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen!.
Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "He who is and He who was and He who is to come, The Almighty."
What does the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" mean in Revelation 1:8?
Revelation 21:5: Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these Words are faithful and true."
Revelation 21:6: And He said to me, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give from the spring of the water of life freely to him that is thirsty.
Revelation 21:7: He that overcomes I shall give to him these things, and I shall be God to him, and he shall be to Me a son.
What does the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" mean in Revelation 21:6?
Revelation 22:12: "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his work.
Revelation 22:13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
What does the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" mean in Revelation 22:13?
Also, did you say that it is Jesus who is The Alpha and The Omega in Revelation 21:6? If so, then Verse 7 says that Jesus is God.
Also, you stated that Jesus is the First and the Last Savior, correct? What about these Verses?
Isaiah 45:21-23: Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Hosea 13:4: Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me.
Luke 2:11: For to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
John 4:42: Then they were saying to the woman, "No longer because of your speech do we believe, for we ourselves have heard and know that this is truly the Christ, the Savior of the world."
Titus 2:13-14: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people as His own possession, zealous for good works.
So, Noko, I ask you -- who is the ONLY SAVIOR?
noko

So, there is absolutely no way that you can prove that by Jesus being called "Mighty God" that He is NOT Almighty.

Just by Jesus saying he has a Father proves it UDF. Do you understand the meaning of Father?
UDF, show me a verse that says Jesus Christ is Almighty. The verses you posed does not, some is referring to Jehovah and others are not, you are seeing what you want to see UDF and not what is being said.
Alpha and Omega also means ONLY, as in I am the only one in my household who was in the Navy ever. I am the ONLY one who has the name of David in my household. UDF give me a break about this blasphene junk you keep coming up with. Because I say I am the Alpha and Omega in my house or First and Last in my household who was in the Navy is actually kinda funny. Get some reality with your arguments. I have to go, ranned out of time, not all of your many questions will I answer, SORRY.
UnDisfellowshipped

Noko said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) So, there is absolutely no way that you can prove that by Jesus being called "Mighty God" that He is NOT Almighty. (End of Quote)
Just by Jesus saying he has a Father proves it UDF. Do you understand the meaning of Father?
Noko, you claimed earlier in this Thread that the fact that Jesus is called "Mighty God" proves that He is not Almighty, but only Mighty.
I have proved that that claim is false, because Jehovah is also called Mighty God.
So, Jesus having a Father proves that Jesus is not all-powerful and all-knowing? HOW?
Let's take King David [the father of Solomon] and King Solomon [the son of David] as examples.
King David was a human being. Solomon was the son of David. Did Solomon have a different, lesser, non-equal NATURE when compared to David? Was Solomon LESS than human?
Solomon was in subjection to David until Solomon grew up, but did Solomon have an INFERIOR NATURE?
Another example:
A husband and wife become ONE FLESH. A husband is human. A wife is human.
The wife is in subjection to the husband, but they are in unity as ONE FLESH.
Does the wife have a different, lesser, non-equal NATURE when compared to the husband? Are wives LESS than human?
Wives are in subjection to their husbands, but do wives have an INFERIOR NATURE when compared to their husbands?
You probably won't answer, but that's okay.
Noko said:
UDF, show me a verse that says Jesus Christ is Almighty. The verses you posed does not, some is referring to Jehovah and others are not, you are seeing what you want to see UDF and not what is being said.
You can ignore those Verses if you want. I (and DJ) have posted numerous Verses that plainly show that Jesus Christ is God, and has the SAME NATURE OF GOD that The Father has.
Noko said:
Alpha and Omega also means ONLY, as in I am the only one in my household who was in the Navy ever. I am the ONLY one who has the name of David in my household. UDF give me a break about this blasphene junk you keep coming up with. Because I say I am the Alpha and Omega in my house or First and Last in my household who was in the Navy is actually kinda funny. Get some reality with your arguments. I have to go, ranned out of time, not all of your many questions will I answer, SORRY.
I stand by my statement -- if you claim to be THE ALPHA and THE OMEGA you are blaspheming. That is a title that belongs to The Almighty alone.
The Almighty God (The Father, Jesus, and The Spirit) alone is THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA -- which means He has always existed and always will. That is obviously what is meant by that title.
I don't care if you claim to be the "alpha and omega" of your family, etc etc. That is not blasphemy.
It is the same as saying "I am the master of my family". But if you claimed to be THE MASTER of the Universe, you would be blaspheming.
noko

Well of course I wasn't saying I was the master of the universe, it is to show that Alpha and Omega is a statement or condition not a name of an individual. There is one Alimighty UDF and in the Bible it is clearly identified with one God, Jehovah. Jesus Christ is his son UDF, a Mighty God. The Bible states there are many Gods UDF, from false to the Almighty.
Now you say the Son has always existed??? Now what is the purpose of Jesus dying for our sins if he really never died? Jesus did in fact died UDF and so did not always exist. In addition Jesus was born UDF unless you truely disbelieve the Bible account. To say Jesus always existed is to take Jesus off the cross and to take away our salvation from redemption. Is that what you are saying?
The trinity doctrine is a contradiction, a lie and is not truely reflected in the Bible. Jesus has a Father, the Father has a son, this is what the Bible says, not that the Father and Son form one God with the Holy Spirit, at best that is man's invention.

noko

Ac 5:29	But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
Ac 5:30	The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a tree.
Ac 5:31	God exalted him with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
Ac 5:32	We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Jesus was killed and died and was raised up by Jehovah (Jesus did not always exist), Jehovah exalted him to be a Prince and a Savior (If Jesus was the Almighty then there would be no need to be exalted but he had to be exalted by the Almighty to take this station). Jahovah chooses who he wants to represent him for our salvation. Jahovah has made many to be Saviors, in that they represented the true Savior Jahovah just as Jesus represents Jahovah his Father today. Today the Holy Spirit is what witnesses these things, it is the Holy Spirit that we must listen to if we want to know Jesus Christ and hear the truth.

UnDisfellowshipped

Noko said:
Well of course I wasn't saying I was the master of the universe, it is to show that Alpha and Omega is a statement or condition not a name of an individual. There is one Alimighty UDF and in the Bible it is clearly identified with one God, Jehovah. Jesus Christ is his son UDF, a Mighty God. The Bible states there are many Gods UDF, from false to the Almighty.
I could say the exact same thing about the title "Almighty" as you claimed about "Alpha and Omega".
You could claim to be the "Almighty" (the one who has all power and authority) in your family.
I really don't see what the point of all that is.
The Alpha and The Omega issue comes down to this:
The ALMIGHTY ONE has the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" in Revelation 1:8.
THE FATHER has the Titles "The Alpha and The Omega" AND "The Beginning and The End" in Revelation 21:6.
THE SON has the Titles "The Alpha and The Omega" AND "The Beginning and The End" in Revelation 22:13.
I would like you to ask your "voice" these questions for me, because I want to know the voice's answers. If you don't mind.
What does the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" mean in Revelation 1:8?
What does the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" mean in Revelation 21:6?
What does the Title "The Alpha and The Omega" mean in Revelation 22:13?
What does the Title "The Beginning and The End" mean in Revelation 21:6?
What does the Title "The Beginning and The End" mean in Revelation 22:13?
What does the word Greek word for "Almighty" mean?
Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "Pantokrator", the Greek word for "Almighty":
The all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent.
__________________________________________________
Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of "Pantokrator", the Greek word for "Almighty":
1) He who holds sway over all things
2) The ruler of all
3) Almighty: God
__________________________________________________
Almighty means the One who rules over all, and it can also mean the All-Powerful One.
So, then, does not the following Verse prove that Jesus is the All-Powerful One who rules over all things?
Matthew 28:18 (King James Version): And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:18 (English Majority Text Version): And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Even if you claim that Jesus was not Almighty BEFORE He was resurrected (which I don't agree with), Matthew 28:18 clearly shows that Jesus is ALMIGHTY after His resurrection.
But, if you read through the Gospels, you will see that Jesus made the following statements while He was on earth as a Human, what do you think (and what does your "voice" think) about the following statements?
Matthew 11:27: All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father, nor does anyone fully know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Luke 10:22: And turning to His disciples He said, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
John 3:35: The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
John 13:3: Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,
John 16:15: All things which the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [the Spirit of Truth] takes from what is Mine and will announce it to you.
John 17:2: just as You have given Him authority over all flesh, so that He will give eternal life to all You have given Him.
John 17:10: And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been glorified in them.
Can you (or your voice) explain how ALL THINGS had already been given to Jesus when Jesus was a Human on earth?
Noko said:
Now you say the Son has always existed??? Now what is the purpose of Jesus dying for our sins if he really never died? Jesus did in fact died UDF and so did not always exist.
I probably have not explained my personal beliefs very well. All of my beliefs are based on the Scriptures. If I have any beliefs that are not based on the Scriptures, then I need to get rid of them.
I believe that Jesus Christ has two Natures (A Human Nature and the Nature of God).
I believe that Jesus is One Person, but He is 100% Human and 100% God. I definitely cannot explain that. But I also cannot explain how God has always existed, but that doesn't mean it is false, does it?
I believe that Jesus is a separate Person from The Father and alsoa separate Person from The Holy Spirit.
I believe all Three share the same Nature of God (all of the Qualities, Attributes, Power, Authority, etc that make up God).
I believe that Jesus Christ's, as God the Son, has always existed and always will.
I believe that Jesus Christ added a Mortal Human Nature to His Divine Nature, and was born on earth as a Perfect Human from the virgin Mary.
I believe that Jesus was 100% Man and 100% God on earth.
I believe that Jesus sacrificed His Human Life on the Cross, and then His Soul went into the Paradise of Hades (or into Heaven), then on the third day, He took back His Human Nature, and His Human Nature was then made Immortal.
I believe God the Son has always existed and always will. I believe that Jesus Christ's Human Body was first created around 2 B.C. and then His Human Body was dead for 3 days, and now, it is Immortal -- never to die again. I believe Jesus, now in Heaven, is still 100% God and 100% Immortal Human.
I can provide the Scriptures that are the basis for those beliefs if you would like.
Noko said:
In addition Jesus was born UDF unless you truely disbelieve the Bible account. To say Jesus always existed is to take Jesus off the cross and to take away our salvation from redemption. Is that what you are saying?
I clearly stated that I believed Jesus was born ONCE, and that was when He was born as a Human from the virgin Mary.
You claimed that Jesus was born three times. I can't find that in the Bible.
At the most, I can only see where someone could claim Jesus was born twice, and that is only if you call a resurrection a "birth" from the dead.
Also, I would appreciate it if you (or your "voice") could explain this Verse to me:
Psalm 89:27: Also I will make Him My Firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Noko said:
The trinity doctrine is a contradiction, a lie and is not truely reflected in the Bible. Jesus has a Father, the Father has a son, this is what the Bible says, not that the Father and Son form one God with the Holy Spirit, at best that is man's invention.
A lot of people feel that way. But, again, I go with what the Holy Bible says. I follow no man. I follow Jesus Christ, my Lord and my Savior.
Was the Apostle Thomas wrong? Did Jesus commend Thomas for being wrong? How many Gods did Thomas worship? Was Thomas a polytheist or a monotheist? Was Jesus promoting polytheism? All of these questions are about the following two Verses:
John 20:28-29: And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God." Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed: blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed."
Noko said:
Jesus was killed and died and was raised up by Jehovah (Jesus did not always exist), Jehovah exalted him to be a Prince and a Savior (If Jesus was the Almighty then there would be no need to be exalted but he had to be exalted by the Almighty to take this station). Jahovah chooses who he wants to represent him for our salvation. Jahovah has made many to be Saviors, in that they represented the true Savior Jahovah just as Jesus represents Jahovah his Father today. Today the Holy Spirit is what witnesses these things, it is the Holy Spirit that we must listen to if we want to know Jesus Christ and hear the truth.
The Bible teaches that even normal people have a soul that lives on after death (and goes to one of two places). Jesus certainly did also.
Jesus is THE Savior. No one else, not any angel, not any man, could have SAVED US FROM OUR SINS. Only God could have died for our sins.
I agree that the Bible teaches that Jesus was exalted after His resurrection. I will try to comment on that soon.
Also, one final point for tonight -- about Isaiah 45:7:
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD [Jehovah] do all these things.
I believe that it is saying that Jehovah can make peace, and Jehovah can punish people for their sins ("create evil").
Notice the following Verses:
Job 34:10-12: Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. For the work of a man shall He render to him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. Yes, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
James 1:13: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt any man
plmkrzy

A husband and wife become ONE FLESH. A husband is human. A wife is human.
The wife is in subjection to the husband, but they are in unity as ONE FLESH.
Does the wife have a different, lesser, non-equal NATURE when compared to the husband? Are wives LESS than human?

Good example to counter the trinity doctrine as well. In fact it is a better example of "proof" against it then it is in favor of it.
There I have just proven you are wrong with your own words!

The Holy Spirit... and DOES God Speak to Us?

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