The Holy Spirit... and DOES God Speak to Us?

Hi Plum,

You said:

(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) A husband and wife become ONE FLESH. A husband is human. A wife is human. The wife is in subjection to the husband, but they are in unity as ONE FLESH. Does the wife have a different, lesser, non-equal NATURE when compared to the husband? Are wives LESS than human? (End of Quote)

Good example to counter the trinity doctrine as well. In fact it is a better example of "proof" against it then it is in favor of it.

There I have just proven you are wrong with your own words!

Could you please explain more about how that disproves the Trinity? I truly would like to know.

My point of the example I posted was, that The Son is in subjection to The Father, but both have the same Nature of God, just like a wife (according to the Bible) is in subjection to the husband, but both have the same human nature.

Noko said:

Now UDF, to be given something means you didn't have it, is that not right? Now what was given to Jesus in this verse? Clearly power was given. Now did Jesus have this power to begin with? If true then it wouldn't have to be given to him right? So if Jesus was given power would it not show that he was not All-Powerful? If not All-Powerful he isn't the Almighty. In short Jesus was commissioned by Jehavoh, by Jehavoh's auhority power was given to Jesus as well as all things which you used John 3:35, John 13:3, John 17:2 to show where as verses John 16:15 and 17:10 shows a completion to the other verses does it not?

Great questions! I truly enjoy studying the Bible and praying to my Lord Jesus, and I am definitely going to do both, in order to find the answers to your very good questions!

I think it is important to find out the Hebrew and Greek words that are used in each Verse of the Bible.

So, here are the definitions of the Greek word used for "power" or "authority" ("exousia") in Matthew 28:18:

Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "exousia":

G1849
e???s?´a
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah

From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.
____________________________________________

Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of "exousia":

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
1a) leave or permission
2) physical and mental power
2a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
4a) universally
4a1) authority over mankind
4b) specifically
4b1) the power of judicial decisions
4b2) of authority to manage domestic affairs
4c) metonymically
4c1) a thing subject to authority or rule
4c1a) jurisdiction
4c2) one who possesses authority
4c2a) a ruler, a human magistrate
4c2b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
4d) a sign of the husband’s authority over his wife
4d1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
4e) the sign of regal authority, a crown
_____________________________________________

Right now, from what I have learned before, I believe that Matthew 28:18 is talking about Jesus Christ's role as Mediator (and as a Human).

Let me explain a little more:

Notice that the following Verses say that Jesus, as God, will rule as King forever and ever over His Kingdom:

Psalm 45:6: Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter.

Hebrews 1:8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

Isaiah 9:6-7: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 1:32-33: He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Daniel 7:13-14: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

But then, notice the following Verses:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There appears to be a major contradiction between the Verses above and the Verses in 1 Corinthians, because 1 Corinthians says Jesus is going to hand His Kingdom over to The Father, but all those other Verses say that Jesus is going to rule over His Kingdom forever and ever.

However, I believe that 1 Corinthians is talking about Jesus Christ's role as The Mediator, and is talking about His Mediatorial Kingdom.

I believe that The Father is the One who has given Jesus everything in Jesus Christ's role as Mediator. Jesus already had everything as God.

Noko said:

(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I believe that Jesus Christ has two Natures (A Human Nature and the Nature of God). (End of Quote)

UDF this is not a Bible teaching, flesh does not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, sin was laid to rest in the flesh UDF, it is our fleshly human nature that must die.

Jesus Himself said that He was resurrected IN THE FLESH:

Luke 24:36-43: Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you." But being alarmed and becoming fearful, they thought they saw a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But as they still disbelieved for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Do you have any food here?" So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And taking it, He ate it in their presence.

John 20:24-29: But Thomas, one of the twelve, the one called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will by no means believe." And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been closed, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Bring your finger here, and see My hands; and bring your hand here, and put it into My side. Be not unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

UDF, I think you did well on discerning Isaiah 45:7 by reflecting on Job 35:10-12 and James 1:13. Now the Basic English Bible renders this verse much better as far as I am concerned:

I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Now allot of Bibles accuse Jehovah for creating evil in this verse which I believe you discerned is not correct. In other words if a translator doesn't really understand the nature of God as in Love, then his human translation will have these type of errors. So what I am saying here is that men fall short of the mark when translating even the Bible. This is just a comment on my part.

Oh yea! A great Psalm indeed!! Psalm 45, that is, don't you think? You identified it with Jesus which is correct, now remember it is showing Jesus Christ throughout the Psalm. Note what verse 45.8 says

45:7 You have been a lover of righteousness and a hater of evil: and so God, your God, has put the oil of joy on your head, lifting you high over all other kings.

In short Almighty God (Jehovah) lifted Mighty God Jesus over all other kings. Note that there are other kings present. Now if Jesus was the Almighty he wouldn't need to be lifted above the other kings (cough cough) right?

Now UDF you are like a bunny rabbit with the scriptures jumping from one to the next. The truth is Christ, go to him and receive the truth through the Holy Spirit, let Jesus Christ teach you directly in your sleep, in the morning, during the day or night. Jesus Christ is our teacher and master as in an older brother while Jehovah is our Father in the house hold of the Almighty.

My point of the example I posted was, that The Son is in subjection to The Father, but both have the same Nature of God, just like a wife (according to the Bible) is in subjection to the husband, but both have the same human nature.

Hi UN-D,

That is my point as well.

The same arguments and logic used in the bible to prove the trinity, could be used as a tool to prove that men and women become one being. The reason it would never convince anyone, aside from being just plain silly, is simply because we have physical proof that it isn't true. So therefore, when we read phrases such as "man and woman become as one" we know what that means and it isn't sharing the same head.

Humans can be convinced of just about anything at all when there is no physical proof one way other the other to back up something or discredit it.

Hi Plum,

You said:

Hi UN-D,

That is my point as well.

The same arguments and logic used in the bible to prove the trinity, could be used as a tool to prove that men and women become one being. The reason it would never convince anyone, aside from being just plain silly, is simply because we have physical proof that it isn't true. So therefore, when we read phrases such as "man and woman become as one" we know what that means and it isn't sharing the same head.

Humans can be convinced of just about anything at all when there is no physical proof one way other the other to back up something or discredit it.

Actually, I wasn't trying to say that a husband and wife become "one being", I was only comparing the unity and oneness of the husband and wife with the unity and oneness of The Father and The Son.

I was also showing how, even though a husband and wife are in unity as "one", a wife can still be in subjection to the husband, and they could still be "one".

I believe that The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit all have the same Divine "Nature" or "Essence" or "Being" (in other words, they all have the same Attributes, Qualities, Powers, etc).

I believe that the Three are separate Persons (just like a husband and wife are separate persons) who are in Unity as One God.

I definitely do not believe that The Trinity is a "three-headed god" (as the Watchtower, and sometimes the Catholics, teach).

I definitely do not believe that The Father, The Son, and The Spirit are all the same Person (which is known as "Modalism").

I hope I explained my beliefs better. If you have any questions, please let me know.

Noko said:

UDF, I think you did well on discerning Isaiah 45:7 by reflecting on Job 35:10-12 and James 1:13. Now the Basic English Bible renders this verse much better as far as I am concerned:
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I agree, I do think that is more accurate.

Noko said:

Now allot of Bibles accuse Jehovah for creating evil in this verse which I believe you discerned is not correct. In other words if a translator doesn't really understand the nature of God as in Love, then his human translation will have these type of errors. So what I am saying here is that men fall short of the mark when translating even the Bible. This is just a comment on my part.

I agree. No human translator is going to perfectly translate every Verse of the Bible. I believe that, overall, the King James Version is most accurate (however, that being said, it can be very hard to understand because our English language has changed A LOT since 1611).

Noko said:

Oh yea! A great Psalm indeed!! Psalm 45, that is, don't you think? You identified it with Jesus which is correct, now remember it is showing Jesus Christ throughout the Psalm. Note what verse 45.8 says
45:7 You have been a lover of righteousness and a hater of evil: and so God, your God, has put the oil of joy on your head, lifting you high over all other kings.

In short Almighty God (Jehovah) lifted Mighty God Jesus over all other kings. Note that there are other kings present. Now if Jesus was the Almighty he wouldn't need to be lifted above the other kings (cough cough) right?

I agree -- Psalm 45 is a beautiful Psalm about Christ our Lord!

You are correct, it does say that the God [the Father] of Jesus will lift up Jesus above all other kings, and it also says God will exalt Jesus above His fellows.

Now, when would Jesus have ever had "fellows"? It couldn't have been in Heaven, where He was above every creature in Heaven, being in the "bosom of The Father", and His only "Fellows" in Heaven were The Father and The Holy Spirit.

So, that must be talking about Jesus as a Human on earth, being exalted after His resurrection.

Notice, Philippians Chapter 2, John Chapter 1, John Chapter 17, and Matthew 28:18 describe Jesus Christ humbling Himself, and His exaltation, very well (taken from "English Majority Text Version"):

(Philippians 2:5) Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
(Philippians 2:6) who, existing in the Form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
(Philippians 2:7) but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming to be in the likeness of men.
(Philippians 2:8) And being found in appearance as a Man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient to death, even the death of the Cross.
(Philippians 2:9) Therefore God also has highly exalted Him, and has graciously given Him a Name which is above every name,
(Philippians 2:10) that at the Name of Jesus every knee may bow, of those in Heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
(Philippians 2:11) and that every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(John 1:14) And the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

(John 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify Me alongside Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

(Matthew 28:18) And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

I believe that those Verses explain better than I ever could, how Jesus Christ, even though He was "existing in the Form of God" in Heaven, was "humbled" and was then later "exalted".

Noko said:

Now UDF you are like a bunny rabbit with the scriptures jumping from one to the next. The truth is Christ, go to him and receive the truth through the Holy Spirit, let Jesus Christ teach you directly in your sleep, in the morning, during the day or night. Jesus Christ is our teacher and master as in an older brother while Jehovah is our Father in the house hold of the Almighty.

Jesus is our Teacher, Master, Lord, Owner, God, Savior, Mediator, Brother, High Priest, King, Soveriegn, Ruler, and Redeemer.

I agree that everyone looking for the Truth should come to Jesus -- ask Jesus for the Truth. Talk to Jesus. Receive Jesus into your heart and be saved.

I LOVE the following Words of Christ which are beautiful:

John 6:35: And Jesus said to them, "I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He that follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 8:58: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

John 11:25-26: Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He that believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Revelation 22:13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

John 3:16-18: For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the Only Begotten Son of God.

Revelation 3:20: Behold, I stand at the door and I am knocking. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him and I will dine with him, and he with Me.

Matthew 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I am there in their midst."