GIVE ME A BREAK.
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The Holy Spirit... and DOES God Speak to Us?
by AGuest 128 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Cassiline
When I first started to post here I read a few of Shelbys posts and I was irritated by some of her statements, I do believe I made a comment as such as well. I have since apologized to Shelby for my reaction to her belief system via email.
I find the earlier statement of those who may believe her ideals and statements thusly resulting cultish behaviour, assinine. To each his or her own. If you are offended by her posts or any others then just don't read them or refrain from making comments that may hurt.
Again it seems if one does not subscribe to a set of "rules" as put fourth for society to live by then they are not "normal" or pshcho. Who made the rules we are to follow? Who is correct? Which faction is right?
It seems as we each have our own set and different belief system. If for example if I do not believe the JW's I am going to die. Lets stop the labeling and live for ourselves instead of interjecting our set of rules into others lives.
Hugs
Cassi
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DJ
noko,
Through, by, to, for, means of.........blah! I agree! That's why I asked this question flat out to God and He has revealed to me these things:
Psalm 33:6-9 By the Word of YHWH the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses. Let all the earth fear YHWH. Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. For He spoke and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast.
Psalm 148:1-5 v.5 Let them praise the name of YHWH, for He commanded and they were created.
John 1 In the beginning was the Word..........All things were made _?_ Him and without Him NOTHING was made that was made. In Him was LIFE and the life was the Light of men.
2Peter 3:4-5 ......For since the father's fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. For this they willfully forget that, by the Word of God the heavens were of old......
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God.......
Genesis 1 In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.....Then God said "LET THERE BE LIGHT" "LET THERE BE A FIRAMENT IN THE MIDST OF THE WATERS............."
He spoke and it was done, he commanded it and it stood fast. Who? The WORD SPOKE!!!
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noko
For He spoke and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast.
Did not Henry Ford do the same there DJ? (In a very limited way that is, now don't get smart )
He commanded and they were created.
Sounds like old Henry again to me of course in a much smaller scale, that is if you consider millions of model T's small.
He spoke and it was done, he commanded it and it stood fast. Who?
That also could be said of you know who, anyways I am not trying to be smart but only to show something. Peace be with you.
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DJ
noko,
If I understand your analogy....Henry Ford is (GOD) and the factory workers are (Christ)??? Clearly, you failed to comprehend what I wrote in my last post!! The WORD of GOD spoke creation into existence. Who is the WORD? In ISA. YHWH declared that He stretched out the heavens ALONE!!! No master helper, factory worker! Wisdom is personified as master worker. Wisdom is also shown as a woman....read it all!! If Henry Ford declared that he built all of his cars ALONE.....He would be lying wouldn't he? YYWH did not lie when He declared that He "Built" the heavens and the earth ALONE! He had no helpers......ALONE means alone, by himself. Consider these others...
Note: verse references marked wtih a "*" indicate a clear reference to Christ's Deity in the NWT.WHO IS GOD?
Jehovah
*De 6:4 Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
*De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
No Other "Gods"
*Is 44:6-8 besides me there is no God. there is no Rock besides me.
*Is 43:10 Before me there was no God formed.
*Is 45:5,22 with the exception of me there is no God.
*Is 46:8-11 no other God, nor anyone like me.
No Other "gods"
*De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
*Ex 20:2-3 must not have any other gods
ALL OTHER GODS OR gods ARE FALSE
Baal
*Judges 6:31 Baal, God
Dagon
*Judges 16:23-24 Dagon, god
Satan
*2 Cor 4:4 Satan, god
Herod
*Acts 12:21-23 Herod, a god
ARE THERE MANY GODS OR MANY gods? *Ps 96:4-5 One True God by nature
*Gal 4:8 those who by nature are not gods.
*1 Cor 8:4-5 One God in 8:4. 8:5 is referring to idols who by nature are not gods, as seen in Gal 4:8
This helps us understand that being God is much more than a title or a name. It is the very nature of the being so described as God. God is God because of who he is, not because people call him God. WHO IS LORD?
God
*Ac 17:24 God, Lord of heaven and earth
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*Ac 4:24 God... Sovereign Lord
*Ac 17:24 God... Lord of Heaven and Earth
Jehovah
*De 10:17 Jehovah is Lord of lords
*1Tim 6:15 Jehovah is Lord of lords
Jesus
*1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
*Ro 10:9 Jesus is Lord
*Rev 17:14, 19:16 Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords.
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
This verse (Lk 2:11) shows that Jesus was born Lord, not that he became Lord later. HOW MANY LORDS ARE THERE?
One Lord
*Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
*1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ WHO IS SAVIOR?
God
*Titus 1:3 Our Savior, God
*Titus 3:4 Our Savior, God
* 1 Tim 1:1 God, our Savior
*2 Sam 22:3 God my Savior
*Ps 7:10 God, a Savior
*Ps 17:7 God, o Savior
*Ps 106:21 God their Savior
*Is 43:3 God your Savior
*Is 45:15 God of Israel, a Savior
*Lu 1:47 God my Savior
*1 Tim 2:3 our Savior, God
*1 Tim 4:10 God, who is a Savior
*Titus 2:10 our Savior, God
*Jude 25 the only God our Savior
Jehovah Alone
*Is 43:11 I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior
*Is 45:21 Jehovah alone is Savior
*Hos 13:4 No savior but Jehovah
*Is 49:26 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
*Is 60:16 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
Jesus
*Php 3:20 we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
Titus 2:13 we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
NWT introduces [the] into the previous verse to obscure that Jesus is called God there.
*Titus 1:4 God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior
*Titus 3:6 Jesus Christ our Savior
2 Pet 1:1 our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ.
NWT adds [the] to the previous verse to obscure the fact that Jesus is called God there.
*John 4:42 the savior of the world
*Ac 5:31 Chief Agent and Savior
*Ac 13:23 a savior, Jesus
*Ep 5:23 a savior of [this] body
*2 Tim 1:10 our Savior, Christ
*2 Pet 1:11 the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 2:20 the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*2 Pet 3:2 Who is being spoken of here? Jehovah or Jesus?
*2 Pet 3:18 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
*1 John 4:14 the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world WHO IS OWNER AND LORD?
Jesus
*Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
*Ep 4:5-6 one Lord, one faith. Who is the one Lord? Jehovah or Jesus? WHO FORGIVES SINS?
God
*Mk 2:7 God alone can forgive sin
*Lk 5:21 God alone can forgive sin
Jesus
*Mk 2:5-7,10 Jesus forgives sin
*Lk 5:24 Jesus forgives sin WHO PURCHASED CHURCH WITH HIS OWN BLOOD?
God
Ac 20:28 Why is [Son] in brackets? How can this be "understood" without being in the Greek text explicitly? SAVED BY FAITH IN WHO?
Jesus
*Ac 4:12 There is not another name under heaven by which we must be saved. Whose name is this?
*Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name. Who is "him?"
*John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
*John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
*1 John 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
*1 John 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
*Ro 3:19-26,28 man is declared righteous by faith in Jesus
*Ro 10:9 declare that Jesus is Lord and exercise faith... for salvation WHO CREATED ALL THINGS?
God
*Ep 3:9 God, who created all things
Jehovah alone
*Is 44:24 I, Jehovah..., stretching out the heavens by myself. This does not allow for a "junior partner" in creation. Jehovah clearly states that He Himself created the heavens without the aid of anyone else.
*Is 48:13 My own hand laid the foundation of the earth and my own right hand extended out the heavens. This does not allow a "junior partner" in creation. See also Heb 3:1-4
Jesus
*Jo 1:1-3 all things came into existence through him. If Jesus is a created being then he is a "thing". But this verse says all "things" came into existence through Jesus. This excludes Jesus from the realm of "things" and puts him in the class of being uncreated, eternal, not part of the created world.
Col 1:16 by him all [other] things were created. What is [other]? How can that be "understood" if it isn't present in the original language?
Rev 3:14 arkhe = beginning Note: same arkhe applied to Jehovah in Rev 21:5-7. How is Jehovah the "beginning" as the WT demands that arkhe must be translated? [Should You Believe In The Trinity? p.14]
*Ps 102:24-27 Who? Jehovah?
*Heb 1:10-12 This is a direct quote of Ps 102:24-27 and is applied to Jesus. See also Is 44:24
Is Jesus a "master worker" with Jehovah in creation?
WT says yes from Prov 8:3. Prov 8 is a personification of Wisdom speaking in a feminine voice (which NWT does not accurately reflect even though WT has confessed of the speaker's feminine gender in Prov 8.) See Prov 7:4 and 9:4 for the gender of "wisdom" in Proverbs. Why did the NWT translate wisdom in chapter 8 as "it" instead of "she" as the original language indicates?
WHO IS FIRST AND LAST?
Jehovah
*Is 44:6,8 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last
*Is 48:12 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last
Jesus
*Rev 1:17-18 I am the First and I am the Last, and the living one; and I became dead...
*Rev 2:8 the First and the Last, who became dead and came to life again
*Rev 22:12-13, 20 Look! I am coming quickly, ... I am the first and the last
*Rev 22:16,20 I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you... Yes; I am coming quickly.
*Rev 4:8 Holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming. WHO IS ALPHA AND OMEGA?
Jehovah
*Rev 1:8 Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty
Jesus
*Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega = first and last. Who is this?
*Rev 22:16 Shows Jesus as speaking in vs 12-13
*Rev 1:12-18 Who is the Son of man? Jesus. What does he call himself? First and Last. First and Last = Alpha and Omega = the Almighty. Jesus is Almighty God.
*Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega is "coming." Is Jehovah "coming?" SHOULD WE BOW BEFORE ANOTHER GOD OR god?
No
*Ex 34:14 Don't prostrate before another god.
Jesus
*Php 2:9-11 Knees bend at the name of Jesus
Father
*Ep 3:14 Knees bend before the Father WHO RECEIVES WORSHIP?
God
Matt 4:10 Worship the Lord God only
Jesus
In all of these verses the NWT has replaced the word "worship" with "obeisance."
Matt 2:2,11 Magi worship Christ
Matt 14:33 Disciples worship Jesus
Matt 28:9 the Marys worship Jesus
Matt 28:16-17 The eleven worship Jesus
John 9:38 The healed blind man worshipped Jesus
Heb 1:6 All angels worship Jesus
Rev 5:11-14 Millions of angels worship Jesus
People worshipped other people or angels and were rebuked for it. See Rev 19:10; 22:8-9; Ac 10:25
What is obeisance?
Watchtower defines it as follows, "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person..." (Reasoning, p.215) Applying the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance to the verses describing people giving obeisance to Jesus, we could say that they "prostrated themselves before a god" since Jesus is "a god" in Watchtower theology. This is a clear and logical conclusion to reach by following the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance and who they believe Jesus is. Upon reaching this conclusion we need to go immediately to the following verse.
*Ex 34:14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.
While the Watchtower attempts to draw the unwarranted conclusion that "obeisance" to Jesus is somehow different than worship, their own definition of obeisance leads them into clear and direct conflict with Ex 34:14. Either Jesus is God or those rendering obeisance to him are guilty of "prostrating themselves before another god."
This refutes the Watchtower's claim that "obeisance" to Jesus is ok because it is not worship. The Watchtower has inadvertently admitted that worship is given to Jesus in the Reasoning book p. 214. The question is stated as follows, "Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?" JESUS NAME IS EXALTED IN NEW TESTAMENT*Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
*Lk 10:17 demons are made subject to us by use of your name
*Ac 16:18 I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her
*Lk 24:47 on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached
*John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
*John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him
*Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name
*1 Jo 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
*1 Jo 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
*Ac 4:12 there is not another name under heaven... by which we must be saved
*Jo 14:13-14, 26 whatever you ask in my name, I will do it
*Ac 3:16 our faith in his name has made this man strong
*Ac 4:7-10,30 healing and signs come in the name of Jesus
*1 Co 1:2 with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
*Ep 1:21 far above every name named
*Php 2:9-11 the name that is above every other name
*Ac 1:8 you will be witnesses of me WHO KNOWS MEN'S HEARTS?
Jehovah alone
*1 Ki 8:39 Jehovah alone knows all men's hearts
Jesus
*Rev 2:23 Jesus searches the hearts of all men
*Mat 9:4 Jesus knew their thoughts
*Mat 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts
*Lk 6:8 Jesus knew their reasoning
*Lk 9:47 Jesus knew the reasoning of their hearts FULLNESS OF DEITY
Jesus
Col 2:8-9 What does KIT say? Divine quality or Deity? What does "all" mean? What does "fullness" mean? Theotes vs. Theiotes or Essence vs. Quality. Theotes is "fullness" used here to describe Jesus, showing that the "essence of God dwells in him bodily." It isn't a question of him having divine qualities. Instead it shows that he is God in the flesh. WHO IS THE SHEPHERD?
Jehovah
*Ps 23:1 Jehovah is my Shepherd
*Is 40:10-11 Jehovah is like a shepherd
Jesus
*Jo 10:11 Jesus is the fine shepherd WHO IS MIGHTY GOD?
Jehovah
*Is 10:20-21 the Mighty God, Jehovah
*Jer 32:18 the mighty one, Jehovah
Jesus
*Is 9:6 Jesus is Mighty God IS JESUS GOD?In all but the last verse of the following references the NWT mistranslates each one.
Titus 2:13
Heb 1:8
Ps 45:6
2 Pe 1:1
1 Jo 5:20
*Is 9:6 Mighty God IS JESUS JEHOVAH?*Ro 10:9-13 Publicly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he was raised from the dead and you will be saved.
*Ro 10:9 (Whose name are you calling on for salvation?)
*Ro 10:10 With the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. (What public declaration? That Jesus is Lord.)
*Ro 10:11 None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed. (Who is "him?" He is the subject of verses 9 and 10, Jesus.)
*Ro 10:12 One Lord, rich to those calling on him. (On who? Vs 9 identifies that we are to call on Jesus by name.)
*Ro 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Return to vs. 9 to see whose name must be called on to be saved. It is Jesus. What Paul was doing in vs 9-13 was clearly explaining that Jesus is God based on OT verses about God (Joel 2:32) applied directly to Jesus. Verse 9 and verse 13 are references to the same profession that saves, precisely that Jesus is Lord. Verse 13 is identifying the same one to call on for salvation that is named in verse 9.)
*Ep 1:21 Jesus' name above every name in this system and the system to come
*Ac 4:12 Salvation in Jesus' name alone
*Php 2:9 Jesus' name above every other name
*Ex 34:12-15 Jehovah's command not to prostrate before other gods. Note that Jehovah condemns little "g" gods here. If JWs were to bow before Jesus then according to their theology they would be bowing before a little "g" god. This would violate Jehovah's command. But Jehovah has said that at the name of Jesus every knee will bend. (Php 2:9-11) Would Jehovah command that people bend their knees to Jesus when he has expressly forbidden bowing before other gods?
*Ep 3:14 compare with Php 2:9
*Is 45:22-24 for OT parallel of bowing to the Father that Paul was quoting in Php 2:9 and applying to Jesus in saying that "every knee will bend down and every tongue will swear". It is a direct quote from the OT referring to Jehovah and is applied clearly and directly to Jesus. Paul definitely believed that Jesus is Jehovah.
Zech 14:3-5 with Mat 25:31 and Ac 1:11-12 Who is returning with the holy ones? Jesus or Jehovah?
Zech 14:5 with 1 Thess 3:13 IS JESUS ALMIGHTY?*Heb 1:3 He sustains all things by the word of his power. Is this mighty or almighty? Could anything less than "all might" sustain "all things?"
*Rev 4:8 Jehovah God, who was and is and is to come, the Almighty. Who is coming? Jehovah or Jesus?
*Rev 22:20 Jesus is coming as identified in Rev 4:8. Jesus is Almighty God. IS JESUS OMNIPRESENT?*Mat 18:20 Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
*Mat 28:20 I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things DOES JESUS HAVE ALL AUTHORITY?*Ma 28:18 all means all WHAT IS HEADSHIP?*1 Co 11:3 Headship, not quality of being. Is man a superior human in quality compared to woman? No. Therefore this verse cannot be teaching that Christ is inferior to the Father if it is not teaching that women are inferior to men. If it is teaching that Christ is inferior in quality to the Father, then language demands that the same inferiority of quality be applied to women, and we know that it cannot be. WHAT DOES FIRSTBORN MEAN?*Co 1:15 Jesus is firstborn of all creation. Does this refer to order of creation or to the headship of Christ? The Greek word used is proto-tokos. There is a different Greek word that specifically means 'first created', proto-tiktos.
*Ps 89:20-27 David was not born first.
Also, who was Joseph's firstborn? See Ge 41:50-52, Ge 48:1-20, Ps 89:27, and Jer 31:7-9 IS JESUS EQUAL TO JEHOVAH?*1 Cor 15:28 This verse identifies a change in the Son's position relative to the Father. What is the Son's position before subjecting himself to the Father? Equal to! This verse describes a change in position. The Son "becomes subject" to the Father. This means that at some point he is not subject and he changes position to "become subject." Note the presence of "when" and "then" in the verse. DOES JESUS SHARE JEHOVAH'S GLORY?*Is 6:1-5 with John 12:37-41 Isaiah's vision of Jehovah's glory is applied by John to Jesus in verse 41. He says Isaiah saw his glory. Who did John mean by [his] and who did Isaiah see?
*Is 42:8 with John 17:5. Jehovah will not share his glory yet Jesus has glory alongside Jehovah
*John 12:45 Can any creature claim this? No. Jesus is not like any created being.
*Is 48:11 Jehovah will not give his glory to anyone else. IS JESUS THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER?*John 12:45 He that beholds me beholds him that sent me
*2 Co 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God
*He 1:3 the exact representation of his very being
*John 8:19 if you knew me, you would know my Father also
*John 12:44 he who puts faith in me
*John 14:7-9 know me, know my Father also
Col 2:9 Theotes vs. Theiotes or (Essence vs. Quality) IS JESUS MASTER?*Col 3:24 Slave for the Master, Christ WHO IS THE STUMBLING STONE?
Jehovah
*Is 8:13-14 Who? Jehovah.
Jesus
*1 Pe 2:6-8 Who? Jesus. HOLY SPIRIT SENT IN WHOSE NAME?
Father
*Lk 10:17 Father's name.
Jesus
*John 14:26 Jesus' name WHO DO WE SERVE?
Jehovah alone
*Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"
God and Jesus
*Jam 1:1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ
Jesus
*Ro 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus
*2 Co 5:15 Live for him who died for us
*Ga 1:10 Christ's slave
*Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy, slaves of Jesus
*Co 3:24 slave for the Master, Christ
*Co 4:12 Epaphras, a slave of Jesus Christ
*Jude 1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ CHRIST'S HUMILIATION OR EMPTYING OF HIMSELF TO BECOME A MAN*Php 2:7 he emptied himself
*John 14:28 The Father is greater than I am
*John 20:17 I am ascending to my God and your God
*Ac 17:30-31 he purposes to judge by a man he has appointed
*1 Co 11:3 Is this quality of being? Is man by nature superior to woman? Or is this headship which does not imply any innate superior quality of the one holding the headship? Yes. See 1 Co 15:28. WHO HAS WITNESSES?
Jehovah
*Is 43:10 "You are my witnesses" says Jehovah
*Is 44:6-8 you are my witnesses
Jesus
*Ac 1:8 You will be witnesses of me
*Ac 13:31 who are now his witnesses
Ac 8:35 Philip witnessed about Jesus IS JESUS MICHAEL?*Dan 10:13,21 Michael, one of the foremost princes
*Dan 12:1 Michael will stand up
*Jude 9 when Michael had a difference with the Devil he did not dare to bring a judgment against him
*Lk 4:8 Jesus rebukes satan
*Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels worship him
*Php 2:9 the name that is above every other name
*Heb 1:6 Jesus is above all angels. The text does not say "all other angels." It says all angels and shows that Jesus is not included in that group. Thus he cannot be Michael the Archangel. COME TOGETHER IN JESUS' NAME*Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name HEALING COMES IN JESUS' NAME*Ac 4:7-10 Healed a lame man by faith in the name of Jesus
*Ac 3:16 his name, by [our] faith in his name, has made this man strong SIGNS COME IN JESUS' NAME*Ac 4:30 signs and portents occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus DEMONS ARE SUBJECT TO JESUS' NAME*Lk 10:17 the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name WHO ANSWERS PRAYER?
Father
*Jo 15:16 Father's name
Jesus
*John 14:13-14 Jesus answers
*Lk 10:17 Jesus' name
*Ac 7:59-60 Stephen prayed to Jesus IS CHRIST IN US?John 15:4-5 NWT says 'in union with us'. This is especially inconsistent seeing that similar Greek construction 'in the vine' doesn't have 'union with' inserted into it.
John 17:23,26 Why 'union with' added to verse 23? In vs 26 same phrase of love 'in them' doesn't say 'in union with'.
Ro 8:9-10 God's spirit in you... Christ in union with you. Vs. 9 shows the Spirit "in you." Vs. 10 says Christ is "in union with you." This obscures our deep personal relationship with Christ, with him living "in us." In vs. 9 "in you" comes from Greek [en humin]. Vs.10 also says [en humin] but the NWT chooses to obscure the issue by translating it as "in union with." Why the inconsistency?
2 Cor 13:5 Jesus in us is the test of the faith. Once again NWT has added 'union with.' More examples of addition of 'union with': Ga 1:15-16, Ga 2:20 IS CHRIST'S SPIRIT EQUAL TO GOD'S SPIRIT*Ro 8:9 True Christians have God's spirit and Christ's spirit dwelling in them. WHO RAISED JESUS?
God
*1 Thess 1:9-10 Whom he [God] raised up from the dead
*Ac 2:24 God raised Jesus from the dead.
Jesus
*Jo 2:19,21 I will raise it up WHO IS THE JUDGE OF MAN?
Jesus
*Jo 5:22-23 Jesus
*2 Cor 5:10 Jesus WHO IS LORD OF THE SABBATH?
Jesus
*Ma 12:8 Jesus JESUS' CLAIMS ABOUT HIMSELF*Jo 5:18 The Jews understood Jesus made himself equal with God.
*Jo 10:28-33 The Jews said "You make yourself God."
*Jo 10:36 "I am God's Son" is a claim to a unique relationship with God. Jews considered it blasphemy because Jesus was claiming to be God by saying this. They wanted to stone him. There are five reasons for stoning:
Spiritism Lev 20:27 Blasphemy Lev 24:10-23 False Prophecy Deut 13:5-10 Stubborn son Deut 21:18-21 Adultery or rape Deut 22:21-24 Lev 20:10 JESUS AT BIRTH
Lord
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become Lord later or was he Lord from birth?
Christ
*Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become the Christ at his baptism by John? -
UnDisfellowshipped
Hello to Noko,
I do applaud the fact that you seem to truly want to know the truth about Christ Jesus the Lord.
You said:
Yes,
This is a perfect example, one Bible says:
John 1:3:All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Yet another Bible says:
John 1:3: All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.
One way it was made by him and the other through him???? Which is which??
Good question. Why do different Bible Translations read differently at John 1:3?
It is because of the Greek word used.
The Greek word "Dia" can mean "through" and it can also mean "by".
Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of the Greek word "Dia" which is translated as "By" or "Through" in John 1:3:
1) through
1a) of place
1a1) with
1a2) in
1b) of time
1b1) throughout
1b2) during
1c) of means
1c1) by
1c2) by the means of
2) through
2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
2a1) by reason of
2a2) on account of
2a3) because of for this reason
2a4) therefore
2a5) on this account
_______________________________________Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of the Greek word "Dia" which is translated as "By" or "Through" in John 1:3:
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
_______________________________________Now, I am sure that you probably believe that the Greek word "Dia" definitely means "Through" instead of "By", but do you believe that this same Greek word means "Through" in 1 Corinthians 1:9?
1 Corinthians 1:9: God is faithful, by ["dia"] whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Or, should it read like this:
1 Corinthians 1:9: God is faithful, through ["dia"] whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
How could anything happen "through" God The Father? So I am sure that will agree that the word "Dia" means "By" in 1 Corinthians 1:9.
So, John 1:3 is saying one of two things:
(1) All things were made BY Jesus or (2) all things were made THROUGH Jesus.Either way, it actually does not change the truth of the Bible.
The Bible, in other places, makes it clear that BOTH statements are true.
All things were made BY Jesus AND THROUGH Jesus. Notice:
Ephesians 3:9: [...] God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Hebrews 1:1-2: God, who in various ways and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:8-10: But to the Son: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions." And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the Earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
The Father is the Head. He has the "final decision" on creation. However, the Bible says that all things were created FOR Jesus, BY Jesus, and THROUGH Jesus. This means that Jesus definitely had a BIG role in designing and creating things the way He wanted them to be created.
The Bible shows that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit all were involved in creating all things, just as all Three are involved in everything that God does. No one else was involved in creating anything.
Noko said:
Then again one Bible:
ssians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
The other says:Colossians 1:16 For in him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and to him.
Hey man get your facts straight you might say, hmmmmm. No not again!!Please see what I posted above. Noko said:
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.
Now, is that a contradiction? Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of the Greek word which is translated as "Consist" or "Held Together" in Colossians 1:17: 1) to place together, to set in the same place,to bring or band together
1a) to stand with (or near)
2) to set one with another
2a) by way of presenting or introducing him
2b) to comprehend
3) to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing
3a) to show, prove, establish, exhibit
4) to put together, unite parts into one whole
4a) to be composed of, consist
_____________________________________ Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of the Greek word which is translated as "Consist" or "Held Together" in Colossians 1:17: to set together, that is, (by implication) to introduce (favorably), or (figuratively) to exhibit; intransitively to stand near, or (figuratively) to constitute: - approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with).
_____________________________________ Merriam-Webster Dictionary Definition of "Consist": archaic (A): EXIST, BE; (B): to be capable of existing
_____________________________________ All created things are "held together" in Jesus, and if they were not "held together" in Jesus, they would cease to exist. Noko said:Now I can say Henry Ford created all Model T's, he was the creator for such a thing, the master designer but did he build them all? Not at all, they where built through many workers. Now old Henry probably said let the fenders be so and let the roof for those with a roof be so and it was so. The workers followed and obeyed exactly what old Henry said and the model T was built and it was very good design lasting a couple of decades with very little needed to make it better.
I can see the point you are trying to make. However, answer this very important question for me please (which DJ already asked): If Henry Ford had told everyone that he had created every part of ALL of his cars BY HIMSELF, ALONE, and that NO ONE HELPED HIM, wouldn't that have made Henry Ford a HUGE LIAR? Well, Jehovah said that He created Heaven and Earth ALONE, BY HIMSELF, and that NO ONE WAS WITH HIM: Isaiah 44:24: So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Jehovah who makes all things; who stretches out the Heavens alone; who spreads out the Earth; who was with Me? Job 9:8: Who alone stretches out the Heavens, Treads on the waves of the sea;
So, you Noko, just like AGuest and also JosephMalik (another poster) would make Jehovah a HUGE LIAR by saying that Jesus is not Jehovah, the same as Henry Ford would have been a HUGE LIAR if he had claimed to have made all of his cars ALONE and NO ONE WAS WITH HIM. Noko said:
Now that doesn't take care of this apparent confusion of those two Bibles does it? Now who is the master teacher? Who do you go to? Who do you want to teach you? Who do you listen to? Let it be Christ, the Son Of God, through the Holy Spirit, he will teach you all things you need and is the truth. That is the true source of wisdom and discernment. All you have to do is ask and open up your hearts to our Lord. Any errors in interpretations will become apparent and clarified better then spring water. Peace and love to all those who are in Christ.
Amen to that. I agree completely with that statement!
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UnDisfellowshipped
Noko,
I think you will find it very interesting to see how the following Translations read at Colossians 1:16:
English Majority Text Version: because by Him all things were created, those in the heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Analytical-Literal Translation: because by Him all [things] were created, the [ones] in the heavens and the [ones] on the earth, the visible [things] and the invisible [things], whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all such things have been created through Him and for Him,
GOD'S WORD Translation: He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers- everything has been created through him and for him.
International Standard Version (ISV): For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him.
World English Bible: For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
New American Standard Bible (NASB): For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
English Standard Version: For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
New King James Version: For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible: because by Him everything was created, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
____________________________________________________Also, have you thought about this, Noko?
Jesus said that NO ONE has greater love than this: that someone should give his life for his friends.
If Jesus was not God, then that means a created, lesser, inferior being performed a greater act of love than God has.
Do you think that is true?
____________________________________________________DJ,
That is an AWESOME list of Scriptures proving beyond any shadow of doubt (to Bible-believers) that Jesus is God Almighty!
Thanks for posting that DJ!
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Hamas
All that these scriptures do is merely place more emphasis on the possibility that the Bible has in fact been corrupted down through time. The reasoning behind the concept of the Trinity holds no logic under close examination.
God himself states that 'He alone is most High' and besides Him 'there are no other'.
By presuming that a man that walked the earth over 2000 years ago was in fact God in flesh denies these two statements made by He who sent him.
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AGuest
On the one hand we can say that:
The Greek word "Dia" can mean "through" and it can also mean "by".
And that...
Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of the Greek word "Dia" which is translated as "By" or "Through" in John 1:3:
And give examples, such as...
1) through
1a) of place
1a1) with
1a2) in
1b) of time
1b1) throughout
1b2) during
1c) of means
1c1) by
1c2) by the means of
2) through
2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
2a1) by reason of
2a2) on account of
2a3) because of for this reason
2a4) therefore
2a5) on this accountAnd yet, ENTIRELY miss what is said in such examples, so that when someone points out that it is Nos 1c2 and 2a2 that was truly meant... because the One about whom it is speaking SAYS so himself... and one is only relating what such One HIMSELF said... one is ridiculed and labled as "psychotic". Yet, when many choose to use the definitions that are Nos. 1 and 1c1... based PURELY on their OWN understanding... (and we KNOW this because they do not SAY that the Son told them such a thing)... we are asked to BLINDLY follow.
VERY interesting... indeed... at least, to ME. Truly, to WHOM should I listen: to the One about whom it speaks... whose "palate... in LOW TONES... utters TRUTH itself"? Or to 'earthling man' in whom that One has told me... and the scriptures corroborate... NOT to put my trust?
Again, I say to those of you who LACK FAITH SO AS NOT TO HEAR... "decide for yourselves whom it is that we should obey: God... or man." GOD... says listen to His Son. MAN... says... "listen... to us."
For me... the decision is a "no-brainer". For with regard to earthling man the saying is true: "he can't even run his OWN life... I'll be DAMNED if he'll run mine."
Oh, and I also find it quite interesting that at one point we can refer to "wisdom" as my Lord and a "master worker,"... yet, when such "worker" SAYS he was PRODUCED... we question that it is indeed him of whom we are speaking. Well, in TRUTH... it IS him... and he was not a "master worker"... but a FOSTERLING... which is a LEARNER... which my Lord TOLD his disciples he was. You doubt it? I ask YOU: ask HIM. Listen... and hear for yourself when the Truth speaks.
May you all... have peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
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AGuest
As always... may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the peace... and LOVE... of His Son and Christ... be upon you and yours... to time indefinite... if you so wish it.
I am, always,
YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ,
SJ