Take George out of the equation. (page 6)

Thunder Rider

Simon wrote:

It's beyond question that the Iraq situation is a mess. All we can hope for and work to now is to make it a short-lived and least painful mess.

You are right Simon, its a real cluster over there. I'm just saying that we're all her snapping at each other and getting upset when we don't have a good answer to the problem either.

If we are realy intent on placing blame than I would think that the previous administration carries more blame than the current.

Thunder

RevMalk

The British crack me up the most. They're almost as bad as the damn French. I bet they weren't complaining when we lost thousands of Americans to save their asses in WWll. By the way, I heard France boosted it's Alert levels this past week from Run to Hide. There's only 2 levels higher collaborate and cooperate. It's getting serious over there...

You guys want to know what the real problem is? Selfishness. The people of this world have become so damned selfish that in general we don't give a crap about anyone but ourselves. "We're losing so many American men" - This is true and it's a sad fact. But doesn't anyone realize the amount of Iraq's that have been tortured and killed for decades? I'm not naive, I believe it's quite possible that our Gov't stretched the truth a little bit (All Gov'ts do ALL the time), but with the mentality of most of these people and the selfishness that abounds, it's no f'ing wonder!

Can you imagine what would have happened had Bush came to us and said "This crazy Bastard is a murderer and he needs to go!" - We'd have turned our heads as a nation and looked away as we have for years. To hell with the innocent people that we don't personally know. To hell with the babies that were dying over there. To hell with teenage girls that were dragged into their dungeons and raped, beaten and murdered. They're not our kids right?

War sucks, no-one enjoys it, but wake the hell up already.

Ok, I've said my peace so go ahead and bash the hell out of me, then complain about how Bush's violence.

Rev

PS - The British/French thing was a joke, I don't want to see anyone freak out for no reason.

Simon

If we are realy intent on placing blame than I would think that the previous administration carries more blame than the current.

Don't tell me ... Bill left a post-it note on the fridge saying "Invade Iraq" ?

I presume you just want to lay the blame for all the things 'Dub for Brains' has done at Clinton's door? No reason, no explanation, no justification ... just "they cary more blame" because "I said so" is it?

Simon

RevMalk: are you discounting all the coallition lives that have been lost in Iraq? You seem to suggst that only Americans have made any sacrifice. It isn't the case.

It's selfishness that is the problem alright ... a country and an electorate with an unquenchable thirst for cheap oil. Heaven forbit if anyone should suggest they USE LESS or PAY MORE and sod anyone who stands in their way to get it.

The number of people who have been tortured and killed is terrible. So I hope you will be pressing and calling for the head of the criminals who backed the regime such as Rumsfeld et al.

Almost all these problems are the result of foreign influence and meddling. What the people need is for US (the west) to stop trying to manipulate and control them so that they can work things out.

Yerusalyim

Patient,

You said,

If only Bush would do the same thing.
Bush IS a terrorist. Really? Define terrorism. What is the difference between a terrorist who kills thousands of people and one who does exactly the same yet hides under his political authority? Answer = No difference. I suppose the fact that these thousands the US have killed were mostly hostile elements trying to destroy the US made no difference to you. Change your logon name to Neville Chamberlain perhaps?
I had to smile when I read what you wrote, what I quoted above. Thanks for the satire. It is satire, right? Or have you not put your brain in gear before moving your mouth? Bush IS fanning the flames of hatred all across the Middle East, the Arab world and even parts of Asia. How exactly is he doing this, by taking a stand and stating that terrorists will be met with force in their own homes? He needed a scapegoat after 9/11 so he just bombed the poorest country he could find on his map. So, you excuse the Taliban from lending aid, comfort, and shelter to Bin Laden and AQ? How nice of you. Does it make a difference to you that they would have killed you had they gotten the chance? Besides, Bin Laden and Mullah Omar are FAR from poor.You speak of 'dealing with terrorism' but he sure did that when he gave the Taliban 43 million dollars in 2001. Wise move if he knew that Osama was a big hit with the Taliban, wouldn't you say? I agree any aid to the Taliban was wrong headed. Hindsight is great, huh.
So who next, Mr Expert? I mean, who to attack next to rid the world of evil and terror, big bad dictators like Saddam? Maybe North Korea? Iran? ~~Libya?~~ ~~Israel?~~ Open your eyes brother. Open your eyes, we are at war with people who want to kill innocent civilians.
One other thing, thank your president for giving me such a kind exchange rate for my British pound.

czarofmischief

Just wanted to pop in and wave hello to everybody. I'm sitting this one out - as far as I'm concerned, Bush has done his best to confront the post-911 world and I'm gonna stick by him.

CZAR

ozziepost

when we lost thousands of Americans to save their asses in WWll

Oh dear! I wouldn't go down that track, eh?

czarofmischief

Yes. I remember ANZAC day - let's not go down the road of what happened 50 years ago. We all paid dearly for Chamberlain's mistake, so let's just remember that one privately, eh? I agree with ozzie.

CZAR

patio34

If we are realy intent on placing blame than I would think that the previous administration carries more blame than the current. --ThunderRider

Hi Thunder,

It seems to me that it's more than "blacing blame," it's trying to find out how we got into this mess, was it justifiable, was it good strategy, and the most important question of all, is do we want to continue with the same president when we get a chance to make a change of direction.

This reminds me of a Chomsky statement about the policy of US government (Clinton and all of them) is to "forget the past, and move onto the present and future." Of course, this prevents people knowing what has happened in the past that may be the reason for the present and future conditions. Also, culpability for actions. But we have the 9/11 Commission looking into it and it doesn't do any of us any good to be, as you say, snapping and biting at each other.

I think the metaphor you had of the rattlesnake was ok, but think Simon's application is more fitting. I likened it to someone trashing my boss's office and then demanding that I come up with a solution to cleaning up the mess, while the trashing is still going on. I think the first action may be to get the ones doing the messing up stopped completely. And maybe even get a more neutral group in to supervise the cleaning crew.

But, I'll agree. I don't know exactly what should be done about this. I just think I want the country to change direction from the way it's been going. I know, that's just my opinion and you have yours. And I respect both of us and our right to have them.

Pat

czarofmischief

Hey Pa, have you ever read Horowitz's commentary on Chomsky - kind of helps put our little anarchist buddy into perspective.

CZAR

Take George out of the equation.

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