Abortion... (page 13)

bebu

...not trying to interrupt a conversation here, actually, but I just ran across this online as a news item. I don't know if this is "old" news or not... but it was news to me. There is also a video clip that is very good.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3846525.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3847319.stm

How people perceive the unborn--as tissue, or as fully human--does make a difference on their point of view, I think. It affects me, anyway! I would not even bother thinking about this issue if I believed fetuses were less than human.

bebu

SixofNine

I agree bebu, though my conclusions are different. Thinking about the life processes and the stages therein, have shaped my views to the point of be unreconisable in comparison to my old JW way of thinking. A sperm cell and an egg cell may get together and instantly have the POTENTIAL to eventually evolve into human life, but they are not human life. If potential is what is sacred, then any form of birth control really would be evil.

Cassiline

How people perceive the unborn--as tissue, or as fully human--does make a difference on their point of view, I think. It affects me, anyway! I would not even bother thinking about this issue if I believed fetuses were less than human.

That is strange Six, I was just reading this the other day about potential vs actual.

If we are to accept the equation of the potential with the actual and call the embryo an "unborn child," we could, with equal logic, call any adult an "undead corpse" and bury him alive or vivisect him for the instruction of medical students.

http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2404

Abortions are private affairs and often involve painfully difficult decisions with life-long consequences. But, tragically, the lives of the parents are completely ignored by the anti-abortionists. Yet that is the essential issue. In any conflict it's the actual, living persons who count, not the mere potential of the embryo.

Cassi

SixofNine

:But, tragically, the lives of the parents are completely ignored by the anti-abortionists. Yet that is the essential issue.

bebu

The childs quality of life is of no special concern to them, one can deduce from their words and actions.

I truly disagree with this sweeping statement. Crisis pregnancy centers often offer parenting classes, free clothing, adoption counseling, cribs, formula, etc. as well as clothing banks for children up thru size 4. They refer out to other agencies for that which they cannot do.

20 years ago while in college, I co-founded a clothing bank in my hometown to augment a fledgling crisis pregnancy center. I talked to a classmate of mine who was a director of Planned Parenthood and discussed her opinion on local needs, and also with the director of the center. That clothing bank is still operating after all these years to my great pride, and ALL the local churches are able to offer help and concern to women in need tangibly.

Where I live now, the staff of the pregnancy center are models of care (I don't work there--I just know some of them). The staff has several women who had abortions themselves; they are quite compassionate people.

Being pro-life doesn't mean that one has a hard heart, any more than being pro-choice does.

bebu

SixofNine

I truly disagree with this sweeping statement. Crisis pregnancy centers often offer parenting classes, free clothing, adoption counseling, cribs, formula, etc. as well as clothing banks for children up thru size 4. They refer out to other agencies for that which they cannot do.

I see your point bebu, my comment was probably overly broad. Your comments brought something more to mind for me however.

They refer out to other agencies for that which they cannot do.

"That which they cannot do", is that which no agency can do: force cajole guilt bribe or even, teach, people who don't have the potential to be good, loving parents, into being good, loving parents.

Cassiline

The childs quality of life is of no special concern to them, one can deduce from their words and actions.

Six

This I wholly agree with as well. Perhaps those who are so staunchly opposed to abortion offered at the tender 8-10 week stage to allow these fetuses to be explanted from the mother into themselves and assume full responsibility for said fetus I may understand their point more. Perhaps even champion their cause.

Offering counseling and baby clothes/diapers is not long term care, it's a short term fix for those who think they are doing good yet move onto the next fetus/cause and forget that this child is with a mother/father/boyfriend/drug addict/ rape/ incest survivor who did not want/ appreciate, could not have or is unable to care for the child mentally/ physically/emotionally/etc, to begin with. A child who most likely will end up in the social work system forgotten and suffering long term ill effects.

And no adoption will not work unless these people want to go through the above procedure and then adopt the child out after such. I would rather know that a fetus was not born, then born into a home where he was abused, beaten, starved and died a horrid death.

I would truly like to see or hear of any org which follows this child through live making sure he/she is educated/fed and most importantly loved and has every emotional support available from loving parents through at least the college stage.

Whole thing sound extreme? Yes, just as extreme as the pro-life ask of those who wish to terminate.

Cassi

bebu

But what of the age beyond embryology? I find the dismembering of fully-formed children in their mother's womb a horrifying concept.

In Japan, abortion is legal and practiced as a form of birth control for up to the first 3 months. There are many abortions in Japan. But all the Japanese I spoke (even doctors) with expressed shock that abortion was allowed after this period in the US. They thought America was more conservative than they were. (In America, it is not until the head is completely delivered --keep 3 inches in, and abortion is allowed even at 9 months-- that a baby is finally safe from being burned alive via saline, dismembered, or having its brains sucked out.)

I think that a firm line needs to be drawn earlier than it is right now. 12 weeks tops. After this stage, the fetus is developed enough to experience the pain from an abortion. Ectopic pregnancies are usually discovered by this stage as well. There is less controversy during this period.

Actually, the moral issues of abortion hinge less on available services but upon with the obvious, undeniable humanity of the child. If we see it, especially after 12 weeks, we should not deny it.

bebu

Cassiline

But what of the age beyond embryology? I find the dismembering of fully-formed children in their mother's womb a horrifying concept.

Bebu

I do not support end stage abortions. I think they are utterly appalling. I do however have an excecption(s) to that, as I said earlier if the baby is anencephalic, grosley malformed with no possibly of a quality life and will die or cause the mother and baby to die then those are the only exceptions.

I see no reason why any fetus should be aborted past 12-14 weeks as 99 percent of people know they are pregnant very soon afterward becoming so. This is the responsiblity of the person wanting to terminate, to assure it is done in a timley manner. I was only aware of one state preforming end stage aborrtions, that being New York and I did not believe it was only due to convience, but health concerns. Correct me if I am wrong.

I can relay horror stories, of women I know, one of which comes to mind. A friend of mine was pregnant with twins. After testing it was determind one twin was very ill, just about anything you can imagine was wrong with the fetus, she was a little over 5 months pregnant.

Because it was told to her the healthy twin would die if the sick twin lived due to his draining the healthy one they decided to terminate the sick twins life. This was done in a Dr.s office in TX. He inserted a needle of air into her abdomen and then into the sick twins heart then injected the air and he died. She then had to carry this dead fetus until the healthy baby was born.

When the time came, the babies were born, the sick twin was born alive and the healthy dead. The doctor made a big mistake, she just about killed herself and ended up in the hospital. I'm relaying this as I do not agree with all aspects of abortion, I do believe there is some right and some wrong. Is there any such thing as a liberal/conservative pro choice person? If there is then I am one.

Nothing is full proof and as I said before I do not support those women who use abortion for birth control time after time. They need to assume responsibility at some point and use birth conrtol--always.

Cassi

Yizuman

How do you feel about Norma McCorvey who was once known as Jane Roe in Roe vs Wade of 1973 who is now a born again Christian, who is now trying to reverse her case? http://www.roenomore.org/crossing_over/welcome.html At one time she said that she woke up in a children's playground after having been drinking the night before, she somehow wandered there and fell asleep. She said when we woke up and looked around, trying to figure out where she was and the first thing she noticed was that there were no children at the playground, all the swings were empty, swaying in the wind, none at the seesaw, monkey bars, etc. She then freaked out saying, "OMG! I killed them all!" Read her story at her website, it tells everything from her life right up to today. http://www.roenomore.org/normas_story/testimony.htm Yiz

Abortion...

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