How do you defend your god's inaction?

by AlmostAtheist 105 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    Why should the "Doctor" step in?

    Nope, I wasn't missing anything. This is exactly where we diverge on it, and it is truly a matter of opinion, moral opinion. My morality -- arbitrary, I guess, like all morals -- would never allow me to let another person suffer when I could prevent it with no cost to myself. (God loses nothing and risks nothing if he steps in, unlike me trying to stop a mugger that may kill me)

    A different set of morals may allow that sort of behavior. Or maybe it's as an earlier poster suggested -- god is amoral.

    Dave

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    To answer the question: faith. The Bible says God cannot be pleased unless we have faith. In "Crimes and Misdemeanors" Woody Allen shows Judah's family arguing over faith vs. reason and the father holds to his faith even if he was to be proven wrong. That's how it is with theists. Of course most don't feel they can be proven wrong. And IDers are muddying the waters now too.

    One thing that cannot be denied is that nearly everybody, believer or not, goes about his or her daily life working under the assumption that no god is going to interfere with the day's events. Things happen, good or bad, and we deal with them, regardless of "God." That's why I'm agnostic in the sense that it doesn't matter to me whether any gods exist - I'm still going to live my life the way I see fit.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Why is anyone "obliged" to do anything?

    Given that our world is full of "eat or be eaten", whether you view it as created that way, or not; given that we have socially evolved a set of morals that don't appear to have any function beyond the growth of a "group" that in modern culture is ceasing to exist; that more often than not, people will turn a blind eye to the suffering to others, as long as it isn't happening in their backyard...

    Why do we look to a supernatural being as a fallguy when first and foremost our own ethical morals have to be questioned? If we would oblige ourselves to do something in such and such a situation, why do our morals let us down in the things we often CAN do something about?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Then there's the theory that what you do to others you do to yourself.

    Judge not, that you be judged. Cosmic Karma. The bigger picture, if one exists.

    Just batting a few ideas around here, guys. Further, as I hinted at the outset, who says that "God" is inactive?

  • ChrisVance
    ChrisVance
    Jehovah HAS done something about it. He has put a plan into motion and it will come true.

    If you believe that one, I've got some oceanfront in Kansas I'll sell you real cheap.

  • ChrisVance
    ChrisVance
    Further, why is it ok for an atheist or deist to say "sh!t happens", but not for a theist? Seems a bit like dual standards, to me.

    Wow what a twisted piece of logic. You have no problem with the dual standard that a dad should protect his son when it's in his power to do so, but gawd doesn't have to protect anyone when it's in his power to do so.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Chris:
    Do you protect every living thing that's in your power to do so?

    Consistently?

    An analogy for you, if I may:

    Your next-door neighbour is shooting vermin on his property and you and your family find it disturbing. You ask him to refrain, but he doesn't.

    You have a gun, and threaten him with it, but still he doesn't desist.

    Do you restrict his free-will by blowing him away?

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Further, why is it ok for an atheist or deist to say "sh!t happens", but not for a theist? Seems a bit like dual standards, to me.

    The conceptual framework is completely different. The atheist starts from the position that the universe is empty of any god-like creature and accepts the reality of the situation: we can only help ourselves, if we choose.

    The deist comes from the position that there is some divine, omnipotent being in the universe that is "the supreme intelligence", "loving" and "merciful"....given this premise one must look around the reality of the horrors on this earth and either conclude 1) god does NOT possess the above attributes or 2) he has left the building. Either way, if one CREATES the universe and everything within it.....the buck must stop with said CREATOR....

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Kid:
    Define "deist".

    Futher, define "creator". Are you responsible for what your children do?

    To be quite candid, if God has the power to stop certain things happening I couldn't answer why He does or doesn't act. This thread was never supposed to be about that, was it?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    This problem was explored by the ancient Hebrews in the book of Job. How could God do nothing and let the righteous suffer? Originally, this was handled as a poetic debate between the sufferer and his friends (Zophar, Bildad, Eliphaz) who have different points of view. The book questions the premise that was widely held in ancient times (and elsewhere in the OT), that suffering is a punishment for sin, such that bad things befall people who have done nothing to deserve such awful things, while the wicked may prosper and triumph unfairly. Job maintains his innocence, not that he is sinless but that he did not commit any sin worthy of such punishment. As Job interacts with his friends who maintain that he must have done something of comparable magnitude, Job's conception of God evolves and changes. This is due to the dilemma he faces that (1) he knows he is innocent, yet (2) God has allowed him to suffer. Since he had done nothing to deserve punishment, and since God is so powerful that no one can plead innocent before him, he concludes that God is the source of injustice in the world:

    "The arrows of Shaddai stick fast in me, my spirit absorbs their poison, God's terrors stand against me in array...May it please God to crush me, to give his hand free and play and do away with me!" (Job 6:4, 9).
    "How can a man be in the right against God? If any were so rash as to challenge him for reasons, one in a thousand would be more than they could answer...How dare I plead my cause, then or choose arguments against him. Suppose I am in the right, what use is my defense. For he whom I must sue is judge as well. If he deigned to answer my citation, could I be sure that he would listen to my voice? He, who for one hair crushes me, who, for no reason, wounds and wounds again, leaving me not a moment to draw breath...This I dare to say: Innocent and guilty, he destroys all alike. When a sudden dead scourge descends, he laughs at the plight of the innocent" (Job 9:2-3, 14-17, 22-23).
    "I shall say to God, 'Do not condemn me, but tell me the reason for your assault. Is it right for you to injure me, cheapening the work of your own hands...Have you got human eyes, do you see as mankind sees? ... You, who inquire into my faults, and investigate my sins, you know very well that I am innocent, and that no one can rescue me from your hand...If I make a stand, like a lion you hunt me down, adding to the tale of your triumphs. You attack, and attack me again, with stroke on stroke of your fury, relentlessly your fresh troops assail me" (Job 10:2-4, 6-7, 16-17).

    Here, Job construes God's apparent benevolence and providence as mere "dissembling" (Job 10:13), that God is actually an amoral, despotic power in the cosmos bringing misery to the wicked and righteous alike. Zophar, in response, asks Job to quit his babbling and claims that God is so wise he can detect sin that Job is scarcely aware of (11:7-12), and that God's actions are guided by a moral directive. In response, Job turns this view on its head and claims that God's wisdom is best revealed in the dreadful works of his omnipotence, including droughts (12:15), floods (12:16), overthrowing kingdoms (12:17-19), etc.:

    "The tents of the brigands are left in peace, and those who challenge God live in safety, and make a god of their two fists...He builds a nation up, then strikes it down, or makes a people grow and then destroys it. He strips of country's leaders of their judgment and leaves them to wander in a trackless waste" (Job 12:6, 23-25).

    And on it goes like this. The book then contains two likely interpolations of speeches, those of Elihu (ch. 32-27) and Yahweh himself (ch. 38-42), so that Job does not get the last word....Elihu reiterates the position of Job's friends, and Yahweh emphasizes his preeminence over all creation and his unknowable wisdom. This pretty much muddles Job's own view, and the final redactor added the prose prologue and epilogue which explains the whole rationale for Job's suffering and gives the story a Hollywood happy ending. But the "meat" of the book is the middle part, which explores these issues in a back-and-forth between different points of view that is quite interesting to read. Never, however, is the position considered that posits God as disinterested in the affairs of men, or taking no part in Job's suffering. It seems that one either believed that God is punishing you for your sins, or God is expressing his power irrespective of justice. Since the book repeatedly asserts God's omnipotence over all creation, and his involvement in nature, the idea of God's non-involvement is philosophically quite far from this point of view. It seems that as the view of nature in more recent times has changed (e.g. as operating according to their own laws which may have been established by God, but not mechanically operated by God), so does a more Deist-like view of God's non-involvement in nature become more common.

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