How do you defend your god's inaction?

by AlmostAtheist 105 Replies latest jw friends

  • candidlynuts
    candidlynuts

    this is an excellent question! everyones input is appreciated by me and is a lot to chew on..

    its been over 2000 years since god has interacted with mankind verbally (if you believe the bible), no time before in history did he go that long between speaking to mankind (if you believe the bible) ..why? hsa there not been any humans in those 2000 + years worthy of Gods contact? if anyone says god speaks to them now we diagnose them as schizophrenic. were the stories in the bible all about schizophrenics or does he purposely hold back from contacting us now? with all the confusion and death the different beliefs of the bible has caused it looks like he'd clear up some of the confusion, if he is like the wtbs states " a jealous god" looks like he'd want at least some of the billions of people and 1000's of faiths to get it right. thats the kind of action i'd like to see him take! speak up and let us freaking KNOW already.

  • ChrisVance
    ChrisVance
    Your next-door neighbour is shooting vermin on his property and you and your family find it disturbing. You ask him to refrain, but he doesn't.

    You have a gun, and threaten him with it, but still he doesn't desist.

    Do you restrict his free-will by blowing him away?

    According the the bible that is what god has done many times and will do in the future. But the not the point, is it? To answer your question, no, I don't. However, I'm not all knowing and all powerful. If your gawd isn't all knowing and all powerful, is he gawd or is he human? Or is he somehwere in between? What's so cool for believers in gawd is that they think they can define him. And man created god his image. He created him just so. And man saw the god was to his liking. Afterall, he created him.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    "I have done good but evil overtakes me. I am reduced to silence by the darkness or by the mystery which confronts me. The wicked steal, they drive off the orphan's donkey and take away the widow's oxen. They snatch infants from the breast. They shove the poor out of the way, and the destitute of the land are forced into hiding. The poor rise early and scour the earth for a living, and though they labor till nightfall, their children starve. Naked they shiver in the chill of the night. Drenched by rainstorms they hide under rocks, their only shelter. They tread the winepress, while their own tongues are parched with thirst. They groan to heaven, but God remains deaf to their prayers."
    Job vss from 23,24

    Funny how god reveals himself alive and active in the minds and hearts of poets and dreamers but turns himself away from the stomachs and backs of those who really need a god.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Dave:I see that you're still trying to define "Him". That's brave.

    Ethics are always murky. The only rule is that there's no common rule.

    Chris:

    But, but, but, your whole premise was that God can do something so why doesn't he? Here we've clearly identified an area where you could do something but wouldn't?

    Why is that? What are your reasons for inaction? Does that shed any light on the "God" that you've created to knock down?

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    I see that you're still trying to define "Him". That's brave.

    "Fools rush in"...

    Zach (my 7-yr-old) asked me the other day, "If tornados had fingers, and they touched you, would they kill you?" I told him that since they don't have fingers, it's impossible to say what would happen if they did. "For example, if you had wings, how fast could you fly?" I asked, "You don't have wings, so there's no way to guess how fast you'd be if you did."

    "I'd be faster than a bird, but not as fast as an airplane," he told me.

    Hmmmm... OK. So in this spiritual discussion, I have the mind of a 7-yr-old trying to figure out how many Jehovah's can dance on the head of a pin.

    Time to give up?

    (7 if they're fat, 10 if they're skinny...)

    Dave

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    LT,

    I see that you're still trying to define "Him". That's brave.

    It has been with some degree of frustration that I have read your replies. I keep looking for some way I might be misinterpreting you, but to all appearances you seem to be intentionally missing the implications of the argument. (I found this especially to be the case with regard to funkyderek's exceptionally lucid illustration.)

    Dave isn't trying to define God. He's saying that if, as a basic tenet of your faith, you believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then there are certain implications. Now, if you you head me off at the pass and say that you don't believe that God is all-powerful or all-knowing, then it solves the issue right there. But it sounds like you are trying to have things both ways: God is almighty and omnicient, but simultaneously not responsible in any sense for inaction. Is that your position?

    SNG

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    LittleToe:

    Don't you see that you are setting up the sociological experiment based upon your own biases and predilections?

    But of course! What else would I base it on?

    You acknowledge that "God" isn't to blame and that at any number of points Man could have helped himself and/or his neighbour, yet you still want the ultimate fallback fallguy.

    It's really not about who's to blame. If someone cares about the lives of individual humans, and has the power to save those lives at no personal cost, then he will do so. Obviously, one or more of those things is not true of your god.

    But there's a further element that is often disparagingly thrown about in terms of "God's thoughts are higher than ours", that being that culturally why are Western ethical models to be favoured other other potential models?

    Because they're better. Western ideas of individual rights for all are demonstrably superior to any system that devalues human life. Now, your god may not care about humans at all, or he may care about the species and not the individual, or the alleged spiritual component of our being rather than the physical body. If any of those is true, that could explain why he doesn't step in.

    Why should the "Doctor" step in?

    Because he alone has the power to do something about it. I don't think he's obliged to step in. Perhaps his Hippocratic Oath gives him such an obligation, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that he could step in and help. If he does so, there's a very good chance that he can save a human life that would otherwise be lost - at no risk to himself. It would be disgusting and inhumane of him not to help, even if ethically justifiable.

    It's analogous to the mugging scene where a gang of three or four in mugging someone and there's a hundred people on the street. Is it my fault that it happened, if I observe it from an upstairs window? Is it ethicall worse if I'm walking pass the end of the alleyway? What is I happen to have a knife? What if I have an Uzi - should I shoot the gang? What's the "right" course of action ethically - in London, New York, Paris, Nairobi, Calcutta, Peking?

    In my view, you're not obliged to help at all. Whether you should help would depend on the level of danger. If there's a good chance that you'd be risking your life to save someone else's wallet, then it doesn't make sense to step in. If you can prevent the mugging without putting yourself in danger, then you should probably do something. If the victim's life is in danger, then you may wish to take a greater risk. These are really pragmatic rather than ethical questions. If you were Superman, what would you do? I would still argue that you have no obligation to step in, but I would think a lot less of you for not doing so than if you were a mere mortal.

    it is necessarily the case that said deity could prevent any sort of catastrophe, but, at least sometimes, doesn't.

    Why is that "the case"?

    Because he's defined as being omnipotent meaning that he's capable of preventing such catastrophes, and some catastrophes still happen, meaning they have not been prevented.

    Further, on the point of the analogy, the other people are other humans who have all the skills and abilities necessary to alleviate suffering or avert disaster. Why does "God" have to step in? Isn't there a case that He might be saving Himself for the truly miraculous?

    We can't prevent hurricanes, earthquakes or tsunamis. We can't even predict the consequences of our actions or inaction in attempting to prepare for such events. There is nowhere in the world immune to natural disaster. We simply don't have those abilities, and many millions of people will likely die in natural disasters before we develop them. What does God need to save himself for? Is he limited in some way? If he had prevented the tsunami that killed over 100,000 people last year, would he then have been unable to avert a greater disaster?

    Why is anyone "obliged" to do anything?

    They're not, but we judge people by their actions. It's not about being obliged to behave in a certain way, it's about choosing to do so.

    If there is a god, it is clear to me that the suffering of humans does not overly concern him. There are plenty of explanations for his inaction, but I can think of none that is compatible with the idea of an omnipotent god who cares about the lives and welfare of individual humans.

  • Big Dog
    Big Dog

    If there is a God I blieve this about him/her/it:

    "According to the scriptures, God is … and that’s about all we can really say. God is unknowable. God’s ways are not our ways - God’s thoughts are not our thoughts. We think God should stop storms and prevent suffering, but that’s not on God’s agenda. That’s the human agenda and we are so quick to blame God when things don’t go our way. We stamp our feet like scorned children and tell God to go to hell."

    People just keep trying to reduce God to human levels, to human motivations, human reactions, which just makes me shake my head, if there is a God, he/she/it isn't human, so all these little analogies and examples are pretty much pointless in my opinion, you are trying to frame God using human terms and situations which is just not going to work.

    So all this calling God to task in my opinion is a waste of time. If there is a God, and he is actually the creator of this universe, or hell, just of this planet, we are so insignificant compared to that, that us down here yelling, screaming, ranting at him/her/it and demanding an explination as to God's actions is just really funny if you think about it. I'm rusty, but wasn't it in Job where the whirlwind asks, where were you when I did all of this, oh, you weren't around, then go take a flying leap with all your demands and questions.

    believe the hype that God is this super-human in the sky who controls the weather, who controls people who fly planes into building and who controls who lives and who dies.

    God doesn’t work that way.

    For the same reason I think its goofy for people to claim God saved them in the event of a hurricane, or earthquake or whatever, I think its equally goofy to blame God for natural disasters.

    God is not a vending machine - spitting out miracles if we put in the right kind or amount of prayer. God is not a super-human being in the sky, bigger and stronger than we are and all knowing. God is not an evil overlord in the sky, waiting with glee for just the right moment to smite the sinners and bless the saints. God is not even a benevolent, kind papa in the sky, sending waves of “lurve” to us if we’ll just meditate and think good thoughts.

    I have always liked the vending machine analysis, that's how most view God, put in worship and love and recieve blessing in return, like a giant Coke machine. You can believe in God or not, worship him/her/it or not, your choice, no one is forcing you to church, or to this forum, or to read the bible.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    SNG:I'm sorry you find it so frustrating, but you have to understand that while the illustrations are very "human" I'm afraid they just don't sit nicely into my paradigm ~square peg, round hole~

    Since I have been asked about my beliefs, I'm afraid your going have to accept my explanations. Feel free to question them, or even to believe that I condone a level of amorality, if you wish (even though I don't see it quite that way). Just as you needn't agree with me, neither am I obliged to agree with you.

    He's saying that if, as a basic tenet of your faith, you believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then there are certain implications.

    See, now there's a difficulty there. You've conceptualised a "God" who acts in a proscribed manner. I'm afraid "He's" a little more unbounded than that, in my paradigm.

    If God "is", unbounded and unfettered how may we define "Him"? If God is omnipresent, then surely we are but shards of that existence? If God is omniscient, surely we are part of that knowledge, and maybe have access to that Universal Mind? If God is omnipotent, surely we have a portion of that power and allegedly a mandate to use it? If God is the God of the living (including those who have made the transition from this life to the "next"), surely we are never removed from that ever-present/omnipresense?

    So why all this brain-chatter about obligation, etc., when we haven't even got past stage one, by abducating our own "Lordship"? Examine this phrase, rest in it and let it settle: Be still and know "I am" God.

    How's Japan, are ya there yet?

    Derek:

    Because they're better. Western ideas of individual rights for all are demonstrably superior to any system that devalues human life.

    That's kinda bigoted, and I wonder what the Australian Aborigines would make of it, but I'll pass on from that and ask; do you hold the same standard for all life, or just human life? If not then kindly explain why "God", who allegedly isn't a human, should work any differently (seeing as we obviously intend to anthromorphise this to the hilt).

    In my view, you're not obliged to help at all. Whether you should help would depend on the level of danger...If you were Superman, what would you do? I would still argue that you have no obligation to step in, but I would think a lot less of you for not doing so than if you were a mere mortal.

    So there's absolutely no obligation whatsoever, however there remains some moral obligation which isn't actually obligation, but rather is some nice little nuance of non-supernatural thinking that exists but isn't named? Did I get that right?

  • jt stumbler
    jt stumbler

    Is'nt God waiting to give the devil his due? Imho, I think he has had his due long enough.

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