How do you defend your god's inaction?

by AlmostAtheist 105 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    Do you protect every living thing that's in your power to do so? Consistently?

    The question might be more in line with the point as "Do you answer every cry for help that's in your power to answer?" We stomp on ants all day long and we happily wipe out bacteria on a regular basis. But I don't think we'd be as willing to do so if they could look up at us and say, "Dave, help us! Please, you're our only hope! Save us!"

    LT, do you agree with what I said earlier, that we simply disagree on when a person is obligated to provide assistance?

    As for the "who says god is inactive?" question... I DO! (Macrame doesn't -- in this context -- count) Seriously, the point is that he is inactive in the specific scenarios of saving intelligent creatures from physical pain and destruction when they are asking for his help and he has the power to help them at no cost to himself. There can't be any debate on this point, can there? In this specific sense he and all other supposed gods are totally, 100%, unquestionably inactive. Agreed?

    Dave

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Define "deist".

    Futher, define "creator". Are you responsible for what your children do?

    LT,

    I am loosely using the term 'deist' as anyone believing in a supreme "god" existing in the universe (certainly not all "spiritual" people would fall under this rubric). To a point, I am responsible for what my children do (certainly in a LEGAL sense I am).

    But what is more important, I am responsible for protecting my children under every possible circumstance and in any conceivable situation, where it is within my power to do so. And if it were possible, I would do EVERYTHING in my power to prevent any harm from happening to them. The problem I have is derived from the definition of god, listed above, being the only definition I know, having been raised in the judeo-christian tradition. I cant see a reconciliation of this conception of a supreme being with the symphony of horrors taking place on this earth on a constant basis.

  • daystar
    daystar

    In offering an alternate view:

    "Latter-day man has employed his power of idealization in regard to God chiefly to make God more and more moral. What does that signify? - Nothing good, a diminution of the strength of man."

    Nietzsche

    Most people assume that a creator, father-like God, must be a moral, good God. I don't see how this idealization proves to be true in reality. Hence the necessity for a Satan to explain away all the bad things. This may all be "happy-making", but I don't see how it's real. I suspect it all to be just a story we tell ourselves to explain away the things we don't understand about existence.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Dave:You're making quite a number of assumptions that I can neither agree nor disagree to. Most of them are culturally based. For example, I could quite willingly raise and kill a sheep with my own hands, butcher, cook and eat it. Could you? In some portions of this planet human life doesn't have the same cost attached to it. Who is right and who is wrong? Is it not rather that cultural viewpoints differ?

    Your original post was concerning how an individual rationalises things that happen to them. In my own case the answer is that regardless of whether providence is deemed (subjectively) good or bad, it contributes to who I am. Hence my quotation of Rom.8:28.

    Kid:
    I apologise - I meant "adult children". Would you intervene if your child decided to spank your grandchild? To what lengths would you go to stiop that behaviour?

    Such is the murky world of ethics. It isn't black and white, and the shades of grey extend beyond national borders. Since we haven't got a good grasp on the ethical diversity of this planet, how come we are so judgemental of a "dimension" that we know so little of (and in some cases have no belief in)? Further, aren't we also guilty of anthromorphising?

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    Your original post was concerning how an individual rationalises things that happen to them.

    Well, no. Not quite. I may have SAID that, but that's not what I MEANT. (C'mon, LT, read between the lines my mind.)

    What I meant is how do you rationalise the existence of a god capable of stopping tragedies (earthquake, tsunami, etc) with the fact that he doesn't in fact stop them? And not "defend your view to me", but simply, "tell me your view." I want to understand how people think on this topic. I probably won't stop seeing things through my own eyes, but I'd like to at least make the attempt.

    You're making quite a number of assumptions that I can neither agree nor disagree to.

    I'm really not trying to. I'm trying to see at what point our understandings of a god diverge. I thought I had it, but apparently not. Here's my understanding of your general garden-variety god:

    1. All knowing -- if it happens, he's aware of it
    2. All powerful -- he can do anything logical (no rocks he can't lift, one-ended ropes, etc, but he can move mountains)
    3. Loving -- he is interested in mankind (created them, gave them rules, interested in their eternal life)
    4. Unwilling to act to stop immediate physical human suffering

    Would you agree that those 4 things are true of the god you pray to? I don't see how you could not agree to this, and I don't see any assumptions in them outside of the 4 points themselves. If you agree to that list, then I say our only point of disagreement would be on point 4. I think it's immoral and wrong to be unwilling to act, and you think it's ok. That's cool, it's your call. I think you're wrong, but I think it's wrong, sick and immoral to use a Macintosh, but some of my friends still do.

    Such is the murky world of ethics. It isn't black and white,

    Honestly, it's not murky. Not at all, at least not in the context we're discussing it. Honest people can disagree, but it isn't unclear. Unlike abortion, where you have to weigh the long term effects of giving a child to a teenager, against the rights of an unborn child to be born, against the ills to society to have to pay for it all, against... Here we're simply talking about a great big whirling mass of wind and water that is going to kill a bunch of people that haven't done anything wrong. If somebody all powerful stops it, then they don't die. Black and white. Which side you fall on is up for grabs, but there's only two sides.

    Dave

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Such is the murky world of ethics. It isn't black and white, and the shades of grey extend beyond national borders. Since we haven't got a good grasp on the ethical diversity of this planet, how come we are so judgemental of a "dimension" that we know so little of (and in some cases have no belief in)? Further, aren't we also guilty of anthromorphising?

    LT, I would agree with that 100%

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    God's lack of action is infuriating to me.

    How can I possibly bring myself to worship a God that has the power to make all human suffering cease and yet chooses to do NOT A GD MFING THING ABOUT IT???!!!

    DY

  • MerryMagdalene
    MerryMagdalene

    How do I defend my God's inaction?

    I don't feel I have to, because my God is not inactive.

    I see my personal experience and perception of this world as rather like a dream--sometimes wonderful, sometimes nightmarish. But I am the perceiver, the dreamer. No one can step in and change my dream for me, however bad it might get. Only I can change it, and I can only do that by accepting it as it is and developing what Peck calls the tools of discipline, the techniques of suffering, wielded with love.

    God is the one to whom I turn to help me do that. I perceive God as being both within my dream/perceptions and beyond it/them. Through my pain and suffering, I learn, grow, mature, and develop my full capacities as a living, loving, intelligent (more or less) being. My pain and suffering is God's pain and suffering, His strength is my strength ("He became like me so I could receive him. He thought like me so I could become him..."). I do not endure my difficulties alone (unless I think I do) and I always find healing in turning to God. I trust that others can (and do) too, even (or especially) in the very worst of moments.

    Experiencing seperation from God, I learn and grow through my suffering and the suffering of the world. Seeking union with God, I experience love and healing and increased awareness. God is a constant source of inspiration, challenge, and comfort for me, always active in my life. I cannot speak for anyone else.

    ~Merry

  • Big Dog
    Big Dog

    I rather liked this explination.

    Where is God?

    This is always the question that is asked when disaster strikes.

    Where is God? Why didn’t God stop this? Why hasn’t God delivered these poor, suffering people? God must not be that “almighty” if “he” can’t stop all this suffering.

    God, in my opinion, is not living up to his advertising. In a year that has witnessed the aftermath of the south Asian tsunami (approximately 225,000 deaths), Katrina (118 confirmed dead and rising), and Wednesday’s Baghdad bridge stampede (some 953 Shiite religious pilgrims dead), it has become impossible to reconcile current events with the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, magnanimous deity. “The Almighty” appears to be either an unaware, powerless, and/or misanthropic absentee landlord — or no one whatsoever.

    This view shows just how pervasive the right-wing view of the vending machine God has taken hold in our country. It’s a perversion of God’s nature.

    The right wing, with its black and white answers to every question, and the ever-pervasive “prosperity gospel” that teaches people that if they do the right things (namely contributing to the purveyor of the prosperity message) God will make them rich in return, has led people to misunderstand God when disaster strikes. They believe the hype that God is this super-human in the sky who controls the weather, who controls people who fly planes into building and who controls who lives and who dies.

    God doesn’t work that way.

    God is not a vending machine - spitting out miracles if we put in the right kind or amount of prayer. God is not a super-human being in the sky, bigger and stronger than we are and all knowing. God is not an evil overlord in the sky, waiting with glee for just the right moment to smite the sinners and bless the saints. God is not even a benevolent, kind papa in the sky, sending waves of “lurve” to us if we’ll just meditate and think good thoughts.

    According to the scriptures, God is … and that’s about all we can really say. God is unknowable. God’s ways are not our ways - God’s thoughts are not our thoughts. We think God should stop storms and prevent suffering, but that’s not on God’s agenda. That’s the human agenda and we are so quick to blame God when things don’t go our way. We stamp our feet like scorned children and tell God to go to hell.

    God is not a human. True we are made in God’s image - possessing that spark of the divine that creates our better nature - but God is not us and we make a mistake when we expect God to act or think like us.

    God is God - and the scriptures tell us that God is ever with us, working in and through us if we seek God’s will for our lives. When we search for God we should not search for God in the wind, the thunder or the hurricane. We only find God in that still, small voice - that voice that comforts us, that voice that guides us, that voice that assures us that no matter how tough things get or how bad things seem, there is always hope.

    God has never promised us a trouble free life. Believing in God does not get one a pass on tragedy. Believing in God does not mean that we’ll be rich, thin and good looking. Believing in God simply means that against all odds, we will have hope. Believing in God means that against all odds, we will believe that things can get better. Believing in God means that we will be motivated to survive, to grow, to change things for the better - because we understand that justice - real distributive justice - only comes about when those who believe in the eternal goodness and hope of God act on our convictions and work for the betterment of every single person on the face of this earth.

    Read the Psalms and understand. When people search for God they find God in the suffering. They find God in the face of hopeless situations. They find God in the depth of their hearts where their strength lies. They find God in the depth of their hearts where their hope lives. They find God in the depth of their hearts where despair is finally defeated.

    If this current disaster teaches us anything it’s that we’ve forgotten where God is and how God works in our world. God works through us. God lives within each of us and if we neglect that divine spark in ourselves or anyone else, chaos follows.

    Deroy Murdock concludes his article stating that “we are on our own.” It’s that kind of attitude that has brought us here. Only when we realize that we are all in it together will we understand the true nature of God. We are woven together on this earth as a fine fabric and when we truly believe that we are on our own and we don’t need each other then we destroy the fabric of life - the fabric of God. We can only understand God when we understand that we are woven together on this earth - completely dependent on one another. How we live affects one another and until we understand that interconnectedness - that utter dependence upon one another - we will forever feel angry with and forsaken by God.

    If you want to rage at something, rage at the selfishness and vanity that humanity (especially Western humanity) has embraced. Rage at our insensitivity to one another. Rage at our inability to rise above our tribalism. Rage at what the human race has become by our own choices and decisions. God hasn’t put us here - we have.

    God is with us. God is in the despair, in the struggle and in the suffering. God is within us all, and only when we realize that divine spark of every human being and how powerful we are when we realize and act upon our connection to everyone - only then will we truly understand the power and nature of God.

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    I enjoyed that a lot, Big Dog.

    Now, go properly split up some deserving gay couple, pro bono.

    Respectfully,
    OldSoul

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