Was Jesus the first creation.

by ajie 221 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Well then I must question the "most".

    Not only many of those retrospectively admitted in the official line of pre-Nicene Church Fathers were subordinatianists, but in the 4th century the Church leaders were almost equally divided on the issue at hand (whence the flip-flops of Constantine). Even after that a large part of the evangelisation in Europe was realised by Arian Christians. This is a real-size demonstration of the utter ambiguity of the NT from the perspective of later notions and questions.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nark

    "almost"?

  • Narkissos
  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Hellrider, That God created man and is given the credit for all creation is not in question. This does not mean that certain features of such creation were not reduced to specific tasks and given to others like the Word to perform in His name. Genesis does not go into such detail other than to indicate that others were also involved but John goes a bit further. He deals with the beginning of the human race over which this Word would be God. He details how authority from the God that this Word was with was transferred to this Word to create such humanity in His name. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. This is the beginning John is now focused on, mankind in all its complexity. Paul does basically the same thing in Col. 1:16. He is not discussing the universe or anything else not even the animals that have life. You cannot now run to Genesis or Isaiah or anywhere else in an attempt to move John’s introduction in time and/or function as you do in this thread. They do not consider human creation in this minute detail. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Not even the animals are being considered here by John. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Do animals become sons of God also? Do inanimate objects become sons of God? No! Such things are not under discussion.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Word became human to redeem the human creation for which this Word was personally responsible and over which he was God and literal creator. This Word was chosen by God as Savior to such humanity we learn later in scripture since he created such mankind in the first place, was qualified for the task, and could perform the resurrections that would result as a consequence. Joseph

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    So you're a Polytheist then?

    ...not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Sorry, wrong again little toe. You do not understand terms and their use either I see. God is also used as a designatin of authority. It was used by men and others such as the Kings of Isreal in scripture without contadiction.

    Joseph

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nark

    So you think that this issue (debate) took three hundred years to come to a head, because the church was divided for all that time?

    I have to think that it came to a head, when Arianism became a prominent problem. They called church councils to address problems and to define or affirm already existing beliefs.

    D Dog

  • gumby
    gumby
    He deals with the beginning of the human race over which this Word would be God. He details how authority from the God that this Word was with was transferred to this Word to create such humanity in His name.


    JosephM, the polytheist dubbite. So Jesus is god over mankind and god is god over the universe apart from the earth eh? You forgot to mention Dionysus, the god of wine.

    Some nuts are hard to crack

    Gumnutcracker

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Joseph

    This is the beginning John is now focused on, mankind in all its complexity. Paul does basically the same thing in Col. 1:16. He is not discussing the universe or anything else not even the animals that have life. You cannot now run to Genesis or Isaiah or anywhere else in an attempt to move John’s introduction in time and/or function as you do in this thread.

    Like you basically said, its not always staying true to a text, if we jump to what other texts (from different time periods and milieus) say. So lets stick to what Colossians says at 1:16: all created things includes those in the heavens and on earth, the visible and invisible. Even the WTS teaches that Jesus created angels. To give heavens and invisible other meanings is to distort the text.

  • gumby
    gumby

    He's already been told that Midget....but he doesn't listen. He's like scholar.

    Gumby

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit