Gumby
For Joey to be even more flexible with the texts than the Borg blows my mind. I need something to chill me out. Whats the difference between indica and sativa?
Was Jesus the first creation.
by ajie 221 Replies latest watchtower bible
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ajie
Ok thanks for the mass of replys,i see most beleive jesus as being not created ,and the few of you that do think hes a creation write and sound much like j.ws and seem to be the ruder of the folks on here Joshephm being the main one that springs to mind.Anyway thanks to all who have actually tryed to answer my question,i think the simplisity of the reply saying that jesus cant be part of (all) creation and creat all things is the logical argument ill use in my next studie session as the jws aways hark on about logical reasoning,and the fact that firstborn seems more to do with position not order of birth.Also him being the only begotton of the father seems to say to me hes the only thing from the same substance as god,as my son begotton of me is indeed part of me,he carrys my genes,d.n.a if i could creat a little boy he would be someone ive made not beggoton of me,this may sound a bit stupid and simple as im not that educated thats just my way of seeing things.
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JosephMalik
So Jesus is god over mankind and god is god over the universe apart from the earth eh? Gumby, You are another one that keeps changing what I say. Those that cannot respond alter or ridicule to discredit as you have done here. Joseph
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JosephMalik
So lets stick to what Colossians says at 1:16: all created things includes those in the heavens and on earth, the visible and invisible. MS, Yes, lets stick to it but read it in the Jewish context in which it was written and not current interpretation many like you hold. What do you get then? The heavens then become the ruling classes and the earth becomes the ruled. The words en and epi are just as easily translated inward towards mankind and such rulers can be both near (visible) and far away (invisible as in Rome). They have redemption by the blood of Christ (4 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins) just like the Church included in the next few verses. Nothing off world is being discussed here. The problem is not with such texts. The problem is with your pre-conceived doctrinal position and the desperate attempt you made here to support it. Joseph
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gumby
Mornin Joseph
I didn't add to your words that I'm aware of. Here's what you said,
That God created man and is given the credit for all creation is not in question. This does not mean that certain features of such creation were not reduced to specific tasks and given to others like the Word to perform in His name. Genesis does not go into such detail other than to indicate that others were also involved but John goes a bit further. He deals with the beginning of the human race over which this Word would be God. He details how authority from the God that this Word was with was transferred to this Word to create such humanity in His name.
You just said that Jesus ia a creator of mankind....so we have two creators....Jesus and God. God created all except for mankind which he let his son perform you said. Where am I wrong in quoting you.....and how MANY creators do you believe in? Gumby -
Narkissos
DD,
So you think that this issue (debate) took three hundred years to come to a head, because the church was divided for all that time?
I have to think that it came to a head, when Arianism became a prominent problem. They called church councils to address problems and to define or affirm already existing beliefs.
Before a question is explicitly asked, how people would have answered it is just guesswork.
"Either created or begotten" only becomes a dilemma when those concepts come to be opposed to each other (partly as a consequence of earlier debate between "the Church" and "Gnosticism").
To enroll earlier figures (including the NT writers) one side or another of a later discussion sounds like necromancy: having the dead answer a question they really did not answer in their lifetime. (Of course this is a natural part of reading.)
The Arian "problem" wouldn't have arisen and become a major contention bone in the 4th-century church had the issue been clear to everybody before.
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JosephMalik
Gumby, You did not quote me. You said: So Jesus is god over mankind and god is god over the universe apart from the earth eh? Where did I say “is god over the universe apart from the earth? Nowhere! Yes we have two creators and most likely many more not detailed in the texts. How the animals came into existence is not detailed the way mankind is. But we only have one God that authorized such creators to perform such tasks. We only have one God responsible for all creation regardless of how it was accomplished. No you did not quote me or paraphrase me here as you claim and you are wrong in saying you did as shown. Joseph
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gumby
How bout this one Joseph,Leolaia, This much is true and supported scripturally. It is only when specific things are being discussed apart from such heavens and earth that others are involved. Who and how many and where we do not know other than the one identified as the Word. Joseph Malik
You agreed with leolaia on God being the lone creator untill mankind in which he hands over that particular task to his son in which the son would be god over mankind. Was he to be god over the universe too? If not, who was.....god over the universe(not earthly things)? If god was creator and god of the universe and Jesus was the god over mankind, I don't see how this differs from what you said. Are you confused? Then....you have the prideful authority to say god may have used others in his creative acts when the scriptures say it was" him ALONE who stretched out the heavens and laid earths foundations". Your not an ex-writer for the society are ya? You throw speculation around at your disgression just like that skinny brown shoe wearin Freddy Franz. Gumby -
ajie
So was he the first creation,well from what im actually reading here i will have to answer the question in the book like this,i dont beleive he is,but it seems most people aint sure what it means and its quite confusing.Not really a solid answer but thats where im at right now.