Was Jesus the first creation. (page 13)

gumby

ajie,

but it seems most people aint sure what it means and its quite confusing.Not really a solid answer but thats where im at right now.

The fact that most people aren't sure tells us it's a vauge, translucent, obscure book (the bible)

If scholars have been debating the issue for centuries and cannot come to an agreed agreement, I'd say the chances of finding out the truth behind the matter will never happen. The disection has been done and the autopsy has been performed enough to sew back up the evidence as insufficient.

Dr. Gumbystein

Hellrider

Not really a solid answer but thats where im at right now.

Welcome to my world.

There are no solid answers. This is the Bible we`re talking about. There`s a reason why people have been killing eachother over what it actually says, for oh, couple of thousands of years. The WTS pretends to have the textbook-answers. Truth is, they are even more ignorant than all the others.

JosephMalik:

The heavens then become the ruling classes and the earth becomes the ruled. The words en and epi are just as easily translated inward towards mankind and such rulers can be both near (visible) and far away (invisible as in Rome).

I`m not sure whether those particular words can mean that (I have very limited knowledge of greek...just like Fred Frantz =o), if so, then the words "heaven" and "earth" all have to be interpreted according to context. And whatever we perceive as "context" will very often be determined by our prejudices, our preconceived beliefs, motives, whatever we want the text to say. Of course, that`s a problem that`s always there. However, I think you`re "streching words" a bit to far, to make them fit with your non-trinitarian view. The context in these verses are anyway things (literal) in heaven (as "the third heaven") - after all, this is Jesus Christ we`re talking about, where he came from, who sent him, what he did up there in heaven before he came to earth. So I believe the context can`t be earthly rulers. But I don`t think we`ll get any further than this, though.

I would like to ask both you and Gumby to cool down...let`s keep this civilised.

gumby

Hellrider....I ain't riled up.....Joey is. I'm as calm as Joe Rutherford after a 5th of Smirnoffs.

Gumby

Kenneson

If Jesus is not the creator of the universe, why does Heb. 1:2 and 10 say He is?

gumby

why does Heb. 1:2 and 10 say He is?

Since Hebrews had a mystery writer who didn't identify himself, I'd say the guy forgot to take a look at Genesis 1:1 before he penned Hebrews.

Gumby

Deputy Dog

Gumby

If Jesus was not God, what did he empty himself of to become a man?

Phi 2:6

who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men

D Dog

gumby

If Jesus was not God, what did he empty himself of to become a man?

He emptied himself of what he was before becoming a man.

The equality mentioned in Phillipians seems to be his nature ( the form he was in), not his position.

Gumby

Leolaia

The text in Hebrews, incidentally, is allusive to the Wisdom of Solomon (first century BC), and Colossians 1:15 is possibly as well, suggesting a link between the Son of God and the God's wisdom:

"She is a breath of the power (dunameós) of God, pure emanation of the glory (doxés) of the Almighty.... She is the radiance (apaugasma) of the eternal light, untarnished mirror (esoptron akelidoton) of God's active power (energeias), image (eikon) of his goodness." (Wisdom 7:25-26)

"He is the radiant light (apaugasma) of God's glory (doxés) and the perfect copy (kharaktér) of his nature (hupostaseós), and upholds all things by the word of his power (tés dunameós autou)." (Hebrews 1:3)

"He is the image (eikon) of the unseen God and the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)

Here is another parallel between Wisdom 7 and John 1:

"She is a radiance of the eternal light (photos aidiou) ... over Wisdom evil can never triumph (ou katiskhuei)" (Wisdom 7:26, 30).

"The Word was the true light (phos to alethinon)... a light that darkness could not overpower (ou katelaben)" (John 1:5, 9).

Was Jesus the first creation.

Legolas

ajie

gumby

Hellrider

gumby

Kenneson

gumby

Deputy Dog

gumby

Leolaia

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