Biblical PROOF that Jesus Christ IS GOD

by Bibleboy 156 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Hairdog1937
    Hairdog1937

    Ron:

    First of all, I apologize for calling you a JW. I made a wrong assumption. Now, my comments:

    Ron: “I would say this…”(my amplified version of John 1:4) “…reads into the Greek koine something that is not there to satisfy preconceived ideas.”

    Me: The verb used in this verse – hn (ein: “was”) – is the imperfect indicative, 3rd person singular form of eimi, “I am.” In this tense and mood, it signifies continuous action in the past. This is no matter of interpretation; it is grammatical fact. The imperfect tense serves to indicate continuous action. In the indicative mood, continuous action in the past.

    Ron: “I do admit that the Greek can seen in different manners, depending on how one looks at it. The Bible was deliberately written so that this could be done, that the strong delusion would prevail. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11 http://reslight.addr.com/understanding.html.” ;

    Me: I don’t think that I would go so far as to say that God had the Bible written as it is so that “the strong delusion would prevail.” What I will say instead is that God, from all eternity, determined whatever comes to pass; and that what He has determined to take place does not exclude man’s accountability for his own actions. Because of sin, man distorts the Word of God.

    Ron: “Not that I agree with all the conclusions reached by the following quotes, but I submit these to show that John was saying here that it was life that was brought into existence by means of the Logos:…”

    Me: You then went on to quote from Beza and Robertson as they referred to the meaning of zwh (zoe). If one reads the context, the following statements are made with reference to the zoe life:

    “In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it….” (John the Baptist) “…came for a witness that he might bear witness of the light. There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light” (John 1:4-5, 7-8).

    Notice that in the Word this life was, whatever this life is. Then in the very next phrase, John explains what it is. The life was the light of men. So then we must see what is meant by “light” here in these verses. This light was what John the Baptist bore witness of. Do you remember the content of his witness? It’s right here in following verses in John 1. He testified to Jesus being Messiah, “…the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).

    Sin results in death. For one to avoid the death penalty, he must be given life that overcomes it. Scripture speaks of us as being “dead in our…sins.” People that are alive being told that they are dead? How can it be? This is the same question that Nicodemus asked of Jesus. Do you recall Jesus’ response to this ruler of the Jews, this very religious and Biblically knowledgeable man? He said, “You must be born again.”

    Quite clearly, then, the “life” spoken of here in John 1:4 is the life which is the light of men. It is something not comprehended by the darkness because the darkness is not “born again.” It must receive this “light” – this element that overcomes the darkness of sin. That element is “life” – spiritual life. This is the meaning of the “zoe-life” here in John 1:4.

    Hairdog

  • dubla
    dubla

    hairdog-

    Ron:
    First of all, I apologize for calling you a JW. I made a wrong assumption.

    -do i get an apology as well, or have i rendered you speechless?

    aa

  • dubla
    dubla

    also, i find it interesting that your posts to ron are increasingly relying on cross-referencing and reasoning (with the use of other scriptures).......i do not call attention to this because i feel its an inappropriate way to argue, rather, i draw attention to this because you have testified (repeatedly) that its an inappropriate way to argue. i guess its situational? sometimes bringing in thoughts and understandings from other scriptures is acceptable, and sometimes it isnt acceptable until the meaning of the FIRST scripture in question is determined/agreed upon?? i would attest (and youve been showing here yourself) that it is important to look at other scriptures in order to determine the context and meaning of the scripture in question. but i was under the impression that this didnt fit into your approach of using only "exegesis".?.

    aa

  • Reslight
    Reslight

    Of course, I accept your apology (concerning calling me a JW).

    I am in the process of moving, so I only have a few minutes.

    I will just give some links to material that has been written by others concerning John 1:3,4:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/greektheology/message/2075
    http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/john13.htm

    Of course, how one views the connection and the context does affect how one would look upon the verb. As translated in the translations I quoted, the verb would not be referring to the existence of Jesus, but rather as a copulative, connecting Jesus to that which came into being through him, that is life (as originally given to Adam and Eve). The life is the light of men. Originally Adam and Eve had life and the light of men, as provided by Yahweh *through* Jesus. When Adam and Eve sinned darkness came upon the world of mankind and mankind lost the light that of life through Jesus. Jesus came and brought life and incorruption to light, by showing that a perfect human can obey God faithfully, and thus can live for all eternity as a fully obedient human.

    I am stating this briefly and summarly to show that the translation as provided by the RSV, BBE, Rotherham, and some other translations, is in agreement with the context and the rest of the Bible. Since I am in the process of moving, and will soon be away to see my son for more than two weeks, I am not going to have much time between now and November to do a lot of research and typing to show the scriptural support for this. Plus it takes me longer to prepare this material than it use to, due to my health, as I have to stop and rest often. If I find something online written by someone else that shows all this, I will post the link.

    Something related, but not directly, can be found at:
    http://reslight.addr.com/condemn.html
    http://reslight.addr.com/life.html

    Russell, viewing the matter from the translation as given in the KJV and many other translations, wrote something on this:
    http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbnon/r3474.htm
    http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbnon/r4154.htm
    http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbnon/r4106.htm
    http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbnon/r2408.htm

    Ronald

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    Bibleboy,

    Does your post to me exist? I believe it is a figment of my imagination. It must be a mirage!

  • Thomas Poole
    Thomas Poole

    After I disfellowshipped the WatchTower, I studied the Trinity doctrine in earnest with the help of the counselor, as I do believe. I recognized that we were all in bondage to this doctrine, this 1700 year old statement of belief. The doctrine is not divine and not able to be interpreted as they were reasoning back then. So, I suggest to Christians that they simply ignore this formula: 3=1, and all the common words used to express it; but rather just rely on the scriptures.

    Noteworthy is that expressions like "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and the God Head" are NOT IN THE BIBLE. So why use them. To use them and try to compare Holy Scripture to this formula becomes a disconnected venture. Eventually, it takes us off into worthless conjecture. Then people say "Duhhh, well really, nobody reallllllly knows. This is because it's man's garbage in the first place.

    We use this Trinity "tradition" as though it were thinking that should exist in our mind and worship. And then we argue; is it true or not true. Know this, that it is an interpretation of men, not divine, and certainly not from God or it the words would be in the Bible. So about this, let us be wise in our use of our intelligence.

    With the TRINITY TRADITION OUT-OF-MIND, take the freedom you have in Christ, use your brain, and honestly study the scritures about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, separately. Study these titles/names individually using all the scriptures you can find about each. Simultaneously, as convenient, note as the scriptures show, the relationship among the three. You will be amazed with what comes to the fore in your understanding of these three.

    The scriptures about which you will reason require a bit of time. So, be honest and patient, and enjoy your research; asking the Father to help you, from whom the Holy Spirit comes; through his son, who sent to us the Counselor (Holy Spirit) which is here to lead us in all things.

    You should find that neither the WatchTower nor Christendom have it correct. They are too bound up with talking about this Trinity formula, trying to explain their views, and arguing for or against.

    Praise to the Almighty God, the Mighty Son, and the enabling of the Holy Spirit.

    Free In Christ Jesus our Lord & Savior, as the Father would have it.

  • Bibleboy
    Bibleboy

    Peace!
    Scorpion... exactly, but keep in mind that truth is Absolute. And if my message to you was a figment of your imagination, then why did you not ignore it? Which brings me to my next point. God must be real to oneself in order for oneself to believe.

    Everyone else,

    http://jesus-is-jehovah.com./
    ... an interesting site. There MAY be a couple of things here that are a BIT shakey, but for the MOST part there are good points made.
    I am mainly interested in what scripture has to say, not necessarily the guy that typed it all up.
    Peace!

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    Bibleboy,

    I did not respond to your post, you must be imagining things.

    Thanks for the link, I have seen that one already. I still do not think that belief in the trinity doctrine is a salvation issue.

    Take care

  • Bibleboy
    Bibleboy

    Peace!

    At present, the term "Mr. President" refers to George Bush. Let us say for example that JFK was God; this isn't blasphemy, just and example. Anyhow, "Mr. President" is used for both George Bush and JFK, but George Bush is NOT God in this case and would have to be JFK.

    I believe the trinity IS essential to the salvation issue if you want God to save you because you can have the right name all you want, but the right "God" isn't necessarily going to be there for you and God justifies man by his heart (Romans 10:9-10).

    Interestingly enough, Jesus makes His claim to the tetragrammaton ("YHWH" or "I AM [THAT I AM]"). How does ___Scorpion___ respond to the following?:

    John 8:53-59 (NIV)
    53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"
    54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
    55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
    57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
    58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
    59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

    (remember only Scorpion's response please)

    Peace!

  • Reslight
    Reslight

    Perhaps one of the most ridiculous claims many make is that Jesus is claiming the name Yahweh for himself in John 8:58. Yahweh does not mean "I am" but rather "He is" in its simpliest usage, but as used of the one true God and as the one who fulfills his word, it means "He causes to be".

    http://reslight.addr.com/l-trinity.html
    http://reslight.addr.com/l-name.html
    (These are not JW pages)

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